AMA I am anti-babysitter and CIO

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amother

Royalblue

Thu, Oct 05 2023, 11:09 am

Cheiny wrote:

I agree. Years ago it was unheard of for women in our community to work, and every mother stayed home and raised her kids… somehow they managed financially. They also made do with less.

Now it has become the “in” thing for every women to go to work, whether she actually needs to do so for financial reasons, or not.

When one of my dc’s was about 1 1/2 yrs old, I once was walking outside during the day with him in his stroller, and a neighbor actually approached me and asked me almost incredulously why I don’t have him in playgroup or with a babysitter. I responded that I wasn’t working, and she said, “So what? He still should be with a babysitter or in playgroup!” This has become the norm in our very crazy times.

Priorities are very skewed for some.

I just finished reading the book "American Dreams" which is a true story written in book format. In the book, the author's mother worked hard in Europe (even though her husband wasn't in kollel), when they came to the US her mother decided she couldn't work in a different language/culture and she didn't. Her husband did not make enough money for them to live so her children went to work to help out. They worked and handed over their paycheck to their parents, and that's what they lived on.

Are we willing to go back to those times? Are you advocating that teenagers leave school to help out with the family finances?

Do you remember the sweat shops and factories of the lower East side of the early 1900's? Yes, they were mostly unmarried girls working there but they would give their paycheck directly over to their parents. Are we willing to live the same way, now in 2023? I'm sure people would call it borderline abusive (I would actually call it outright abusive) to take a girl out of school to work to support her parents.

=============

My grandmother worked full time in the 1950's to put bread on the table. Yes, in those days there were no babysitting groups so she waited until all her children were in school.

This was their lifestyle:

My father and his brothers stayed home until first grade. Their parents (my grandparents) taught them aleph bais and kriah. Preschool was considered a luxury so they didn't send.

They often didn't have food. Certainly never an extra dime for anything extra. My father said he used to dream of ice cream. Imagine, a boy growing up in America dreaming of ice cream.

They never owned their own home and they never owned a car.

AND my grandmother DID go to work once her children were older - she worked full, full time but sometimes when you start late you can't quite catch up.

Oh, and they also had a tiny family because they couldn't afford for my grandmother to stay home any longer.

Oh and my grandfather actually had a good business when they got married but it fell apart Sad

. No, they were not in kollel.

Yes, even then not everyone made enough money to support a Jewish family and I think it's absolutely amazing that women today have so many opportunities and we no longer need to live the way they lived in the olden days. It's nice to romanticize the past, but it wasn't always as wonderful as imagine.

mig100

Thu, Oct 05 2023, 11:09 am

amother OP wrote:

Yes you’re right on point. The right hand doesn’t know what the left is doing.
And I’m not sure if I ever heard a current day psak from and gadol that babies should be sent out at 6 weeks so the husband can learn. Do you know anyone who asked a shaila before doing this? I don’t.

The bmg rosh yeshiva are definitely
More on board with allowing young men to leave yeshiva and pursue college degrees and jobs. 20 years ago it was very Difficult to get the yeshiva to send out a transcript. Not anymore. It's changed

amother

Olive

Thu, Oct 05 2023, 11:11 am

mig100 wrote:

You agree that being home with babies for the first year is the ideal?

or you agree that sending a babysitter I borderline abuse?

Many agree that its idea that mothers are home with their babies.

the borderline abuse- is where this got controversial.

I agree it’s borderline abusive. If you have a 1:2 ratio and have a way to know what’s going on at all times than I wouldn’t consider it abusive. But the culture to just send a baby to a babysitter at 6 weeks is abusive. It’s a painful truth but an unfortunate truth.
The reason there is so much defensiveness from those responding is because deep down we all know babies are meant to be with their mothers.

amother

Royalblue

Thu, Oct 05 2023, 11:11 am

amother OP wrote:

Rav Matisyahu Salamon. Is he big enough for you?

I personally know people who have asked shaylos. My friend asks all her shaylos to R Shmuel Kamenetsky. I myself have asked shaylos as well, and was very surprised by the response. (I also believed, like you, that it is better for a mother to be a SAHM but apparently I was wrong).

amother

Royalblue

Thu, Oct 05 2023, 11:12 am

mig100 wrote:

You cannot be in BMG and pursue a degree at the same time. We asked.

And it's still difficult to get transcripts. Not impossible, but difficult.

Which is a moot point because how many boys are capable of doing college level work anyway.

amother

Thu, Oct 05 2023, 11:13 am

amother Royalblue wrote:

Have you ever tried any of these service jobs that "pay well and can be done at odd hours"? If someone is a shaitelmacher they will need to send their babies out in order to actually work. All that hair spray is not good for babies. Writing is very rarely a parnasah. Baking and decorating - who does that for a parnasah? Bookkeeping is an office job, sometimes the boss will allow you to work from home, but the same thing applies - you may not be able to work - certainly not if it is a serious job - with a baby at home.

Yes I did work hard to try one of these service jobs and BH it worked well for my family and allowed me to keep my babies home in the years my husband wasn’t earning enough.

Did you try? Or did you send your infant out without even trying?

(I don’t mean you specifically. The general “you” to whoever is reading this).

For the record I actually have 5 kids. I wrote 3 kids upthread because I was changing some details for privacy (like I stated).

amother

Thu, Oct 05 2023, 11:15 am

amother Crimson wrote:

Are your kids perfect? Do they ever fight or have meltdowns or are they so full emotionally that they are never seeking attention or the need for "more"?

My kids are far from perfect. Which kids are? I am also not a perfect parent. But why does that mean I should compromise on my very strong feelings about sending infants out to babysitters?

amother

Thu, Oct 05 2023, 11:18 am

amother Dodgerblue wrote:

He was saying that many kallahs don’t know that their first job is to be a wife and a mother to their husband and children. They think their first and most important tafkid in life is to support their husband’s learning, and that’s a mistake.
It’s to support a Torah life, whatever the Torah says, which includes Talmud Torah as much as they could, but first and foremost being a wife and a mother.

Perfectly said.

amother

Royalblue

Thu, Oct 05 2023, 11:23 am

amother OP wrote:

Many do. I'm surprised you don't know this.

It is much more common in the very yeshivish world for women to be shaitelmachers/playgroup morahs/morahs/babysitters etc because they prioritize being home for their children. I do know a few people who tried baking/decorating as a parnasah, that's how I know it's not lucrative.

I now live in a less yeshivish community where all the women have degrees and they all work outside the home. Not so in the yeshivish communities where most women really do try to stay home, plus the kollel husbands are more available to pitch in so babies are not by babysitters as much as if the husband would be working.

I mentioned this upthread and I would like a response -

Are you aware that yeshivish women often send out to babysitters part time? Are you aware that it is only the yeshivish/kollel people who are eligible for the amazing government sponsored daycares with the great ratios? Are you aware that research does NOT show that it is detrimental to send babies to out part time? (Less than 30 hours a week). Are you aware that research lumps all kinds of babysitters together when they do their studies (high quality babysitting services are not detrimental to baby's development). ?????

amother

Daphne

Thu, Oct 05 2023, 11:23 am

amother OP wrote:

I find that the two cultures are very enmeshed. Many people who are quick to send to a babysitter are also quick to use CIO. It’s the only way they can realistically function with working so soon postpartum. Not everyone of course. But some.

Also, many people said they send their infants the babysitter but then would never let their babies cry. I’m not sure what they think is happening at the babysitter.

WITW??

I literally know only one person who uses CIO and I know hundreds who send to babysitters. You are making many assumptions here and it's really unfair to people.

If you send to a babysitter who takes a realistic number of children, they are not using CIO.

amother

Royalblue

Thu, Oct 05 2023, 11:26 am

amother OP wrote:

Totally not against kollel. My own husband learned in kollel.

I’m against any parent who sends their infant to a babysitter without first exhausting other options. Whether they’re in kollel or not. If this is the reality for many kollel families, am I not allowed to be against it, just because they’re in kollel?

How are you not against the kollel system if you feel that sending out a baby to a babysitter is borderline abusive? Or are you saying that IF you are a kollel wife, you should find a service job (such as babysitting) that you can do at home with your babies home? I'm just trying to clarify your point.

(Again, the more yeshivish you get, the more likely it will be that the mothers are doing just that).

amother

Butterscotch

Thu, Oct 05 2023, 11:29 am

Also if someone is truly an abusive mother, then maybe their kids are better off at a babysitter. So why do you want all these abusive mothers to keep their babies home with them?

amother

Thu, Oct 05 2023, 11:31 am

amother Royalblue wrote:

I’m saying that if the only way your husband can stay in kollel is if you send your infants to babysitters, then your husband shouldn’t stay in kollel.

It’s not my fault if the kollel system necessitates the vast majority of mothers to send out their infants, and it doesn’t mean I need to change my opinion on the matter.

Accusing me of hating kollel just because I’m against neglecting infants is like accusing anyone who has a legitimate complaint against someone Jewish of being anti-Semitic. Is no one ever allowed to have any complaint against any Jew simply because they happen to be Jewish?

amother

Royalblue

Thu, Oct 05 2023, 11:34 am

amother OP wrote:

Thank you for clarifying.

It's not particularly practical for everyone to work at a service based industry at home (I tried it and almost lost my mind, no my husband was not in kollel) so yes, you are anti kollel.

And Rav Matisyahu Salomon disagrees with you. He IS daas Torah for the yeshivish community so.....

amother

NeonYellow

Thu, Oct 05 2023, 11:38 am

amother OP wrote:

I believe the mainstream frum trend of sending infants to babysitters and also employing cry it out sleep training at a young age is borderline abusive.

AMA

I agree with you!!

amother

NeonYellow

Thu, Oct 05 2023, 11:40 am

amother Royalblue wrote:

I am yeshivish Kollel type and he does not disagree with op.

amother

Royalblue

Thu, Oct 05 2023, 11:43 am

amother NeonYellow wrote:

I am yeshivish Kollel type and he does not disagree with op.

In what way?

I have heard him say clearly that although it is not ideal for mothers to send their babies to a babysitter, if there is no other choice because the father is learning in kollel it must be done. Try to minimize it as much as possible, but it must be done.

When have you heard him say otherwise? He says men should leave kollel so that mothers should be home with their babies? I don't think so.

amother

Thu, Oct 05 2023, 11:44 am

amother Royalblue wrote:

You can call me anti kollel if you want, but I think I explained my position on the matter perfectly already. If you want to misconstrue things that’s your choice.

Does R’ Solomon really advocate that infants should be sent to inadequate babysitters at 6 weeks? I’m asking seriously.

And of course you and everyone else will (and did) say “but the babysitters aren’t all inadequate, you just have to find a warm and loving amazing babysitter with the perfect ratio!”. But let’s be honest. Half the conversations on the site are about his it’s impossible to find any babysitter at all, let alone a competent one. This goes double in kollel communities where most babies are sent out and many people can’t afford to pay for truly high quality care. And if you say “well CHS!”, we already know the ratios at CHS aren’t what they claim it to be. And even if they are it’s still a poor poor substitute for a parent.

amother

Royalblue

Thu, Oct 05 2023, 11:51 am

amother OP wrote:

Yes, Rav Matisyahu Salamon is pro kollel.

I never heard him promise that men who learn in kollel will get mon from shamayim, so....

You know, I was just listening to Rabbi Gershon Ribner and I heard someone ask him a question regarding kollel. I'm not repeating the question, as it's not relevant to this thread, but I will repeat the answer - he said "Lakewood kollel is not for everyone". Shocking, isn't it?

Unfortunately, we have created a society that "Lakewood kollel should be for everyone" and I wish there was a practical way for that to change.

So that's my answer to you OP - Lakewood kollel is not for everyone, and if it doesn't work for you, it doesn't. Unfortunately I think many try to make it work long after they should, and that's a separate problem....

In response to your question - in my own family, I have three sisters in law that work from home and did so from the beginning. I don't have a large family, so this is a large percentage. I know, data is not the plural of anecdote, but I thought it might be relevant to the conversation. Just realized it's four. The fifth one works in a day care and is able to bring along her baby.

amother

Royalblue

Thu, Oct 05 2023, 11:52 am

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