17 year old just wants to learn in sukka wwyd

zaq

Thu, Oct 05 2023, 12:49 pm

I will be the voice of dissent. I would force him to go. Too much of a good thing is too much. You want your son to develop into a well-rounded person, not a whistle with just one one note. You want him to value spending time with family, and be sociable, and get exercise, and understand that living a normal life with people is not bittul Torah. He gets enough of this kind of brainwashing in yeshiva, where he spends probably 18 hours a day learning. Maybe more.

If you were doing something utterly juvenile, appropriate only for children six and under, then, sure, I'd leave him home. But assuming that the activity has more or less universal appeal, he can and should join the family.

I'm wearing a plastic rain poncho, so bring on the tomatoes.

notshanarishona

Thu, Oct 05 2023, 12:59 pm

I don’t think it’s healthy for a kid to only learn and not have any type of outlet/ downtime. Does he have friends? Does he ever play a game of basketball? Go out with his friends? Is it that he doesn’t like doing anything besides learning or maybe he doesn’t enjoy trips with shlepping in the car with a bunch of younger whiney kids ? I remember as a teen enjoying certain activities with my friends or sisters close in age but much prefering to stay home and enjoy the quiet if everyone was going.
Regardless, this topic is more of a general question as to how to make sure he is emotionally healthy and has healthy outlets and social opportunities .
In a specific sense to this trip, I think 17 is old enough to choose what he wants and not be forced to go on trips.

amother

Amaryllis

Thu, Oct 05 2023, 2:02 pm

zaq wrote:

Totally agree with you. Wondering if the few posters counseling moderation (and away from 5 days of learning straight extremism) are towards the older side (I personally am almost 60)

mha3484

Thu, Oct 05 2023, 2:09 pm

amother Amaryllis wrote:

Totally agree with you. Wondering if the few posters counseling moderation (and away from 5 days of learning straight extremism) are towards the older side (I personally am almost 60)

I agree with the more moderate posters and am 40ish but the examples OP gave were stuff even my soon to be 13 year old would likely not want to do. I think its a good opportunity to teach compromise. She should gear an activity towards an older teen and see if he still says no to coming along before deciding hes too extreme. If I offered the park or stay home and learn to my son hed prob pick stay home because hes not interested in a playground at this age.

amother

Puce

Thu, Oct 05 2023, 2:38 pm

zaq wrote:

[b]

No tomatoes. I can’t think of a reason to throw something at you. I’m only questioning the bolded.
Imagine this was a different boy and a friend complains to you that her son doesn’t go to minyan or learn at all during Sukkos break. He watches movies until 4am and then sleeps until 2pm. Would you say your friend should force her teen to go to minyan? Force him to get himself a chavrusa and learn for half an hour every evening? I think not. And I think I understand why.
Why is this different?
We all want our kids to develop into good, well rounded people. Going to war when our idea of how to achieve that goal differs from their ideas is counterproductive.

zaq

Thu, Oct 05 2023, 2:41 pm

Bnei Berak 10 wrote:

OP you may discuss your concerns regarding your son's limud with your Rav rosh yeshiva or the mashgiach. If they are pleased with your son's limud then there is no worry.

No worry if he goes on a Chol Hamoed trip (because he's a strong Talmid who will not fall behind) or no worry that he's overdoing it (because they are in the business of drafting people to do all learning all the time)?

giftedmom

Thu, Oct 05 2023, 2:42 pm

amother OP wrote:

I feel like a bad mom because he is all day learning in the sukka while my other kids are having a blast. I'm all day trying to convince him let's go to a quiet park to learn, let's just go apple picking so we can bake for yom tov and he's begging me to leave him alone. I just don't know what the right thing is anymore.

Be a good mom and let this amazing almost adult make his own choices

amother

Amaryllis

Thu, Oct 05 2023, 2:42 pm

mha3484 wrote:

I think all of us suggesting moderation agree that he shouldn’t be forced to come on all of the trips and definitely not ones he doesn’t want to… but he should find ONE thing he wants to do and they can all do it. If you have multiple age children you anyhow are going to have some trips geared to older age and some geared to younger.. there are five days this chol hamoed, surely they can go somewhere he wants to go one day (let him come up with a few options that he thinks he’d be happy with and then OP can go from there). The point is to work it out that he spends one day doing something with his family and not spend every single day of chol hamoed and bain hazmanim learning the entire day to the exclusion of hanging out with family and/or friends.

amother

Amaryllis

Thu, Oct 05 2023, 2:52 pm

amother Calendula wrote:

I think if you are anti learning as a lifestyle it’s not fair to give op advice.

I don’t think those of us suggesting moderation are necessarily anti learning as a lifestyle and it’s interesting that you’ve decided that. As I said, most rebbeim (in my experience, which is significant), would NOT recommend that a 17 year old spend every single day of chol hamoed learning the entire day and not join their family on any trips.

I also mentioned in one of my posts that I have multiple sons who attended Brisk and the like to indicate that I am NOT anti learning as a lifestyle but I think that went over people’s heads?

My own sons all learn at least one seder every day of chol hamoed (which means we can’t leave before 1pm on any trips) and most days different ones don’t join (they don’t like that specific outing, they have something else planned, they’re tired from the Simchas Bais hashoeva they attended the night before…) but overall, everyone joins for two, if not more, of our trips (many of them are short like bowling or an arcade type place or skeet shooting…)

amother

Lightyellow

Thu, Oct 05 2023, 2:52 pm

I also have a 17 year old son who LOVEs to learn and has set himself a full and varied daily learning schedule besides yeshiva learning. He also does have some other interests, including planting and photography. This summer he was home with the family for 2 1/2 weeks, and I made him come with us for one family day out, for some city touring in our location, and once out to a restaurant with us all. He was not happy, but I have explained multiple times the importance of family, being well rounded, eventually taking his wife out even if he has no interest, etc.
However, on sukkos there's literally nothing better than sitting in the sukkah and learning, or even just being. Our sukkah is pretty, has heaters, and just a really pleasant place to be. I'd definitely let him stay and learn in the sukkah.

amother

Clover

Thu, Oct 05 2023, 2:59 pm

I don’t think it’s normal or healthy for a boy to learn 24/7 on Bain hazmanim. We start our trips later in the day to make time for a relaxed minyan and learning experience but he should understand that family time is a priority and it’s not bittul Torah. That doesn’t mean a trip every day but for sure at least once over chol hamoed. If he has a Rebbi or Mashgiach he can speak to tell him to clarify how he should be splitting his time. Balancing learning and life is an important lesson and it doesn’t mean anyone is lacking value for Torah.

amother

Calendula

Thu, Oct 05 2023, 3:00 pm

amother Amaryllis wrote:

Some sound like they don't get the lifestyle at all, so their advice isn't really helpful. I wasn't referring to you.

Bnei Berak 10

Thu, Oct 05 2023, 4:13 pm

zaq wrote:

If the son genuinely has a geschmack for limud he should continue to learn if he loves it. He is practically an adult.

Hashem_Yaazor

Thu, Oct 05 2023, 4:18 pm

A 14 year old I would insist join us, not a 17 yo. At 17, my husband, myself, and my oldest were done with high school. My next 2 iyh will be as well. They're responsible for their own spending of time. I would explain my point of view how much it would mean to me that we spend time together as a family, but leave it up to my kid. I wouldn't worry about this individual decision causing burn out at 17, it's not being done by peer pressure when in the privacy of the home (sukkah).

Ashrayich!

Elfrida

Thu, Oct 05 2023, 6:47 pm

Apple picking has somehow become a Chol haMoed activity, but the fact is that fruit picking is melacha, and should not be an activity of choice on Chol haMoed.

Some poskim permit it as long as the fruit will be used on Chol haMoed or Yom Tov. Others only permit it if you would suffer a major loss by not picking it.

So if someone serious about learning and halacha does not want to go apple picking, you can only respect that.

As for ice cream; buy a few tubs of different flavours, along with all the toppings, and have a family ice cream night in the sukkah, where everyone can create their own ice cream sundae. Family fun that all ages can enjoy, and good family together time.

a2z

Fri, Oct 06 2023, 3:51 am

Elfrida wrote:

Bnei Berak 10

Fri, Oct 06 2023, 5:58 am

Elfrida wrote:

I will hopefully ask my Rabbi abt apple picking. It's a fun activity and not a job so maybe there are different views Smile

ysydmom

Fri, Oct 06 2023, 6:07 am

Elfrida wrote:

you can also bring out board games and make homemade popcorn and do a pizza fries activity in the sukkah everyone can make their own pizza.

I would enhance your sons learning with a gift card to the local judaica store let hm buy a treat for all his torah learning. Enjoy it!

My kids are all older teens and all we did was take leisurely walks in nearby parks/board walks they aren't interested in much else. We went to two simchas beis hashoavas and that was about it. I think I was more disappointed than they were.