Savage Calls Autistic Children 'Brats-

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cassandra

Thu, Jul 24 2008, 4:29 pm

Clarissa wrote:

The autistic kid I know has never been medicated. It was all behavioral therapy. He now suffers from OCD (not uncommon with autistic kids) and may be medicated for that, but I don't know. Nothing for the autism, though.

So what's with all the talk of overmedicating? It seems that people are interchanging autism and ADHD, and that's bizarre.

gryp

Thu, Jul 24 2008, 4:36 pm

Cassandra, I thought so too originally, but I've heard lots of stories the past few days about them being given medication for other things, let's say focusing for example. It seems they are medicated for side issues.
And I would believe it because I've heard of kids being medicated for selective-mutism!!! which I've researched extensively, and there are some behavioral similarities such as not making eye-contact, not speaking, not playing at an age-appropriate level, etc.

marina

Thu, Jul 24 2008, 7:38 pm

Quote:

So your main concern is malpractice lawsuits.
Has nothing to do with the children who are misdiagnosed.
I think it doesn't have to be an either/or. DIAGNOSE PROPERLY. Why choose under- or over-diagnosing? You're paying professionals enough to evaluate and treat your child, for that money, they should get it right.

You grossly oversimplified and misstated my position. Please review what I wrote. Malpractice is an important consideration for physicians, like it or not. A much greater consideration is that the drawbacks of possible overlabeling (which as many here noted several times, is not a real issue) are insignificant for most children as opposed to underlabeling. A child who is given a false positive label of autism will receive behavioral and social therapy. No meds. A child who is given a false negative of "everything is fine" and really has autism may be severely delayed even if therapy is started later.

We will all have a better chance of accurate diagnosis when they come up with a blood test or genetic screening for autism. Before such a time, diagnosis must be somewhat imprecise. Keep in mind that imprecision in medical diagnoses exists even with illnesses for which blood tests exist. There are ranges and guidelines for diagnosing heart disease or even heart attacks, for example, but people sometimes do receive false negative results because of varying enzyme levels in the blood. Would you rather overdiagnose or underdiagnose someone who may be having a heart attack? Or should we just DIAGNOSE PROPERLY?

GR- Medication is not given to autistic children for the autism. There is no medication for autism. There are medications that may minimize violent behavior towards self and others. Drug companies aren't out to diagnose everyone as autistic as they have nothing to gain from it.

Crayon210

Thu, Jul 24 2008, 7:45 pm

There is a world of a difference between a misdiagnosis of a heart attack and a misdiagnosis of autism. The former has very few problems, the latter can cause a whole slew of issues for the child, his family, etc.

Clarissa

Thu, Jul 24 2008, 7:45 pm

If little kids are are erroneously thought to be on the spectrum, they receive services (OT, PT, ST, SI), and at some point, the therapists determine that the child isn't autistic. At some point in the process the child sees a developmental pediatrician for a more thorough evaluation. If the child isn't autistic or even on the spectrum, he or she might still receive services for speech and other delays. If the child is on the spectrum, he or she will receive more intensive services. They're not immediately thrown in a special school, tagged, medicated, with a big red A on their foreheads. If the diagnosis is lifted, they still very well might need services to catch up to their peers, since whatever the concerns were, they're connected with issues of some kind.

The therapists my child sees say that it doesn't take long to see that a kid is on the spectrum, but they're not permitted to diagnose. At some point, the agency or pediatrician suggests a more thorough evaluation. If the child is already in school, hopefully the school will recognize signs and recommend evaluation by a qualified expert.

The services aren't wasted. When they're no longer needed, if the child is fine, they're discontinued.

I think it's silly that we're even given credence to this creep by discussing his claims, which were lamely pulled forth to defend his idiotic rant.

gryp

Thu, Jul 24 2008, 7:57 pm

What I posted:

Quote:

Marina, the first part of your post agrees with what I posted.

Clarissa, many parents out there including myself have had a different experience.

Clarissa

Thu, Jul 24 2008, 8:00 pm

Thanks to this guy, many autistic children, whether diagnosed officially or not, may be facing a very different experience. As I said before, it really frightens me that one idiotic parent out there may actually take this stuff out on his poor autistic child. As painful as it is to have an autistic child, being one sounds like agony.

TziporahD

Thu, Jul 24 2008, 9:30 pm

Clarissa wrote:

I agree. One of the things that bothered me about Savage's comments, aside from the erroneous information about autism, was his suggestion that if a child has some behavioral issue, the best solution is to yell at the kid and call him names. That cannot be good for any child, autistic or not.

gryp

Fri, Jul 25 2008, 4:39 am

Therapists push for therapy.
Drug companies push for the marketing of their drugs.
It's all about money.

I'm glad for you if it hasn't been your experience. I'm sorry to report it's been mine but I was smart enough to see through it.

Savage should be thanked for bringing these scams to national attention. Hopefully the scam artists can be taken down and the children who really truly need help will get it.

Clarissa

Fri, Jul 25 2008, 5:17 am

The most common litany that I hear from my son's therapists is that they don't want to treat children who don't really need therapy. For whatever reason, usually anxious parents or parents who might want a free babysitter, they wind up being assigned to some children who don't really need it. My OT was telling me the other day that he's happy to evaluate children and tell their parents that the kids are fine and really don't need any therapy. They don't need the work -- for every child that doesn't go into the system, there are plenty ready for help.

Some of the stories that I hear from them are heartbreaking. Children obviously on the spectrum, whose parents can't face it, which is something very understandable. I know of a woman who works in early childhood education, who absolutely refused to see that her daughter had something wrong. They went to have a meeting at a prospective preschool, and the admissions person had to tell her the school wouldn't work for the child, and the girl needed to be evaluated immediately. Sure enough, an evaluation confirmed the person's suspicions -- the child is autistic. She's seven years old now, and it's a difficult situation for all involved, but she's in a fantastic program and getting many hours of intensive therapy.

Another friend of mine had a kid who appeared to be deaf, but they couldn't find a hearing loss. Turns out to have been autism (he was evaluated by someone who is considered one of the most prominent in the field), and the family moved to enroll him in a suitable program. He was eventually mainstreamed into a regular school, although he has many behavioral issues, which they deal with and will continue to have to for the rest of their lives.

I think, for some autistic children, the first hurdle is getting their parents to accept that there's a problem so that the kid can get very early intervention. If I had to thank this guy Savage for anything, it's for not being around when my friends with autistic children were forced to face their difficult reality.

Last edited by Clarissa on Fri, Jul 25 2008, 9:07 am; edited 1 time in total

marina

Fri, Jul 25 2008, 6:29 am

Quote:

Therapists push for therapy.
Drug companies push for the marketing of their drugs

And talk show hosts push for screaming at kids...

Quote:

What whole slew of issues? The 3 year old will have self esteem issues because his parents signed him up for speech therapy?

And if a heart attack is diagnosed and it is something else, say panic attack, there really could be many issues. Inappropriate medications, invasive surgery, days off from work and non-treatment for panic attacks, just off the top of my head.

Motek

Fri, Jul 25 2008, 7:59 am

Have you heard or read of any cases of heart surgery being done in which the surgeons discovered that the heart was fine?

TziporahD

Fri, Jul 25 2008, 9:04 am

GR wrote:

Savage should be thanked for bringing these scams to national attention. Hopefully the scam artists can be taken down and the children who really truly need help will get it.

I don't think Savage brought this issue to anyone's attention. A lot of people have been concerned about the over-medication of children for a long time, and the language he used guaranteed the issue would be subsumed by disgust at the way he expressed his opinions, and, frankly, from what I've learned about Savage, I think was his intent. I don't think that is deserving of thanks.

I listened to some of the clips on the site you linked (and thank you for the link). I wasn't very impressed with some of the people who agreed (at least in part- no one supports the hyperbolic comments) with Savage, especially Dr. Breggin who said children should never be diagnosed with psychological disorders or medicated for them, and I think that is ridiculous. Also, his refusal to say "autism is real" makes me question his credentials to speak on the issue. I think that's the Harvard fellow Crayon was talking about; she's right= Puke

Other experts, Dr. Camarata and Ms Fournier disagreed with things Savage said, he dismisses their opinions. For example, he continues, for example, to insist there are no effective screening methods, in spite of being told by both the above experts that such screening techniques do exist and are effective.

If Savage has any genuine concern for this issue, which I doubt, he has gone about addressing those concerns in the worst possible way.

gryp

Fri, Jul 25 2008, 1:22 pm

Tzipporah, although I disagree with your post, I respect your differing opinion since you actually went to the link I posted and came to a thought-out conclusion.

TziporahD

Sun, Jul 27 2008, 10:24 pm

That's nice of you, GR Smile

We may disagree about Savage and autism, but I think we would probably find a lot of common ground between us on the general issue of over-diagnosis and over-medication.

gryp

Mon, Jul 28 2008, 6:14 am

Quote:

but I think we would probably find a lot of common ground between us on the general issue of over-diagnosis and over-medication.

And that's really what's important here. It shouldn't get lost in whether or not we like Savage as a person, of all things. People need to know what's going on here, especially parents.

I've come across children who were receiving therapy when they clearly didn't need it. (Such as the best soccer player in the class receiving physical therapy.)
And my own stories from therapy being pushed for my son and the shocking tantrum from someone in the school's administration when I simply said: "He doesn't need it," left me completely floored.

And then you have the children who aren't getting the therapy and absolutely do need it. The system needs balancing and fixing for the sake of the children.

marina

Tue, Jul 29 2008, 8:28 pm

Quote:

Have you heard or read of any cases of heart surgery being done in which the surgeons discovered that the heart was fine?

People receive medications for heart attacks when they are, in fact, having a panic attack instead frequently as the symptoms of the two are so similar. I don't know about surgery.

flowerpower

Tue, Jul 29 2008, 8:38 pm

It's funny because I just a call from a social worker to take in a certain autistic kid to my program. She said "I don't know why she's diagnosed as autism because she doesn't seem like it but does have some autistic tendencies". But this was a rare case. About 99 percent of the ones I met are clearly autistic. Regarding the meds. I know that they don't just stuff em up with drugs. They all have such bad side effects that the parents have to weigh if it's worth giving the meds or not. They are constantly by the neourologist(sp) or on the phone with him trying to find the right med and right dose.

Pickle Lady

Tue, Jul 29 2008, 9:40 pm

Motek wrote:

Have you heard or read of any cases of heart surgery being done in which the surgeons discovered that the heart was fine?

no but I wouldn't be surprised if it has happened but I highly doubt that its talked about.

Motek

Thu, Jul 31 2008, 7:54 am

marina wrote:

I don't know about surgery.

Then your comment about "invasive surgery" as a possible "issue" was idle speculation, I suppose.

I think any misdiagnosis, whether of a heart attack, autism, is bad news if it is acted upon, whether with medication or any other treatment or non-treatment.

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