I don't understand Elul

amother

Mon, Sep 04 2023, 1:57 pm

amother Freesia wrote:

There is no doubt that asking for things is part of tefilah. So are giving thanks, praise or just expressing one's thoughts andcfeelings before Hashem. But amother plumpink was asking if you see it as the goal of tefilah.
If you knew in advance that you will absolutely not get what you wish, would you still daven?

If a person knew in advance that they will be destined to be poor I don't think their tefilah would use language asking hashem to make them financially comfortable. It would be like asking something to happen yesterday when it's already tomorrow.

If someone has a daughter who's 30 and still single, they don't daven using language that hashem should find a zivug for the daughter by the time she's 25. They realize it's impossible and don't daven for it. By the same logic if a person truly believed that a certain outcome is completely impossible, we wouldn't daven for it.

I'm having a hard time reconciling that our davening is full of specific requests, yet we are told that davening is not really about requests. Further, I question whether davening helps one single drop when it comes to outcomes. Meaning did the people who daven for parnasah have better outcomes (as a group) than those that completely ignored hashem and didn't believe or daven.

PinkFridge

Mon, Sep 04 2023, 4:44 pm

amother OP wrote:

There aren't specific tefillos for zivugim. There are references to doros. People have in mind that their children should build their homes and more, build lives every day that are centered around Hashem and caring for His creations.

We DON'T know, not just in your hypothetical first paragraph situation, but in most situations. So we daven, hopefully, and we also daven for koach to be mekabel that Hashem has a reason for not giving us what we very reasonably think we need.

I buy into the idea of connection. I heard Rabbi Menachem Penner of YU say that when he steps into Shemoneh Esrei he rolls his shoulders, and all of his burdens onto Hashem. We're in His hands.

amother

Fuchsia

Mon, Sep 04 2023, 5:08 pm

amother OP wrote:

I was reading over shabbos that we are supposed to be a little scared in Elul. It's the month leading up to our judgement when our fate will be determined. We need to increase our good deeds and mitzvos to work in our favor to help the judgement go in our favor.

Does any of this make any sense? I don't claim to know hashem's system or how he works. But can we be honest for a minute please? He clearly is not deciding life, death, sickness, health, wealth, poverty or anything else based on our deeds. We all know righteous people who were struck down this year and wicked people that are thriving. And not only do we know of such people but I don't see the most minute, slightest connection between our deeds and worthiness, and hashem's judgement. If I'm being honest I's say the 2 are about as connected as the weather in Chicago and what color shoes I wear. That is they are completely and entirely not related.

We also know it says that teshuva, tefillah and tzeddaka will tear up the bad decree. Why don't I have the right to expect this be true? Why don't I have the right to expect it at least be measurable somewhat, even a little? Instead we are left with "it says it" so it must mean something but again, the people that aren't doing anything to prepare for judgment don't seem to be any worse off than those that do prepare.

And I get it. Hashem is hidden. The righteous suffer. But why act as if our fate is in some way within our control? It really doesn't seem to be the case. The people who got a cancer diagnoses last year aren't the ones who did less teshuva and are less deserving. The people that stayed healthy, married children, had easy parnassa, aren't the ones that did more teshuva than the others.

So once again I will go thru the motions and ask hashem for A, B and C. But I can't deny what I see in front of my eyes using the brain that hashem gave me. Our fates and lot in life seem entirely disconnected to how much we deserve it by devoting our lives to hashem and doing mitzvos.

I’m sorry you feel this way

The reason why has to do more with Kabbalah and less with hashgafa. It is because we are living post sin Adam and chava. There used to be an ability for Hashem to give us pleasure (what we want or need) immediately, in a world where time was not existing. but from the tzimtzum we entered into the system where there is a disconnect, there is time, and we do not see our deeds line up to the results immediately.

We have previous things to correct from past gilgulim, all the way up to the first cardinal sin. This is not traceable to any actions whatsoever and neither is something to feel “bad” about. It just is.
It says in tehilim that the wicked do not correct their ways and seem to have everything in this life, but they are temporary pleasures and the righteous have a lasting reward.

I went through terrible things in my life I can’t write about here. For over 15-20 years. But once you get “past” the nisayon you’re going through, everything changes and kind of becomes like a past life. You went through what you had to and gained from it.

We are not Hashem and cannot judge others actions or experiences. This is beyond our control. However, I will say that I have witnessed cancer patients who were totally bad individuals before and really changed. I also see times in my life b”h where my tefilot actually put me out of bad situations

It’s all about emuna, because if you don’t have emuna in life and the ability to believe in Hashem past the physical, he won’t bring you the nes you’re looking for. I see this all the time with my friends who have commission based jobs. The more you think and know everything is for the best and you trust Hashem, the more you will be able to actually touch this and feel it. A huge part of Judaism’s foundation is on emuna. You are being asked to daven to something you can’t feel, taste, touch, see etc
I see a direct relationship between my fast shidduch and all the difficulties I went through before and all my tefilot

Also it’s important to be cognizant of the fact you don’t know everyone personally enough to “judge” if they went through enough in your eyes (your way of viewing the world) to receive good or bad. Because again - you also don’t know their past lives or their story. Their neshama spark is different from your neshama spark. That’s once again why only Hashem could know.

For example I know a great religious group on one side of the world that does lots of holy things but that same group on another part of the world did some very bad things. You could be viewing it from the “good side” but not know the other part of the picture that’s hidden, a bad side, but is still accountable for the others it is part of.

I’m really sorry you feel this way but education here is key. It’s great you are asking questions and are open to learning!

amother

Fuchsia

Mon, Sep 04 2023, 5:37 pm

amother OP wrote:

Davening will only help to the extent you truly believe it has an ability to help you
If you think it’s all for nothing so of course Hashem will show you it’s all for nothing
Most of reality outcomes are largely based on our beliefs and what we think
Even secular people are attracting their reality by having positive beliefs and affirmations
The second you have doubts about things and try to mix into Hashem’s system, meaning you don’t have emuna and want to stick yourself (your worries or doubts) into the creative process from higher levels - so it will be that way
Thoughts are on a much higher dimension than physical reality
Davening is like a direct line to Hashem - especially if you’re in Israel
Again sometimes a person has to go through pain in order to become more refined and “worthy” to receive blessing.

Another idea :
You not doing a mitzvah, not being religious, doing something else instead : May affect your reality for better or worse until you pass away at 120. No effect otherwise
Doing a mitzvah, giving to the poor, etc: you know for a fact, when you die at 120, you are taking that upstairs with you. It’s not going to decay like everything else does. It will have a sizable impact

A person can also go to a gadol or holy person who has access to “channels” and can help to bring down a yeshuah into someone’s life that they weren’t supposed to get
Davening by a kever is similar as well
Davening during an important eis ratzon even more so
Having emuna all the while and never giving up. Is priceless

If you really feel like all of this doesn’t speak to you, maybe it’s your life mission to not be religious and to do something else. But if you feel like you have a spark in your neshama to understand why, and really change, you should continue to learn and seek the answers you are looking for.
I also really think you need to speak offline to someone about this and not on an online forum.

Also recommend the series by Rebbetzin Ruthie Halberstadt “why things happen” and all her other ones as well, because they have and explain a lot of Kabbalah aspects for the questions you have. It’s on the app Women’s Torah
link to the App store: https://web4.shiur.cloud/stati......html

amother

Mon, Sep 04 2023, 7:21 pm

amother Fuchsia wrote:

I think the bolded is false and almost a dangerous way to think. I remember during covid a young person was very sick. His wife would post on facebook declaring her full and total complete faith that hashem would cure her husband. As he got sicker she never lost hope, reminding everyone that doctors are only messengers from hashem and only he is in charge and regardless of the pessimistic outlook the doctors are giving, she believes hashem will heal her husband. A few days later unfortunately her husband past away. I remember her facebook post shortly after. She was mad at hashem. She felt that she and hundreds of others had davened and begged and fully believed that hashem would come thru and heal her husband. Her complete belief ultimately caused a crisis of faith. Why? Because she believed what you say above that the more emunah a person has the better the outcome.

Aside from that we can see this isn't so with out own eyes. When we look at older singles we don't see it's those with less emunah. When we see families in dire financial distress we don't see it's those with less emunah. When we see families nebech endure ANY type of tragedy, we don't see it's those with less emunah.

So how can you correlate emunah with positive outcome when at face value this isn't so?

bakingmom

Mon, Sep 04 2023, 7:22 pm

amother OP wrote:

I havn't read the whole thread, so apologies if this has already been said, but a couple of ideas that may help to answer some of your questions:
Our purpose in this world is to create a kiddush Hashem by living the life that He wants us to lead, to the best of our abilities. He gives us each a unique tafkid, our own 'job' that we have to fulfill, and also gives us the tools that we need to carry out our 'job'.(tools can be things like wealth, family, good neighbors, anything really but each person needs different tools). Rosh Hashana is a time where each person has an evaluation to see how well we are fulfilling our job, and an opportunity to 'apply for a new job', which obviously comes with a different benefit package. When we daven for things, it's important to realise that it's not just a wishlist of wants, but asking Hashem for things that we need to help serve Him better, to be in a better place to connect with Him. When we do teshuva and reconnect with our neshama, we realise that we want to be close to Him, and puts us in a better place to ask for things, that we will use to serve Him.

When we ask to be written in the sefer hachaim, we are not referring to physical life, as you said - "The people who got a cancer diagnoses last year aren't the ones who did less teshuva and are less deserving. The people that stayed healthy, married children, had easy parnassa, aren't the ones that did more teshuva than the others. " We are asking for spiritual life, the ability to connect and have a relationship with Hashem. (the first year I heard this concept, it changed my davening on RH in such a powerful way -if you hold this thought when davening on RH and read the tefilos, it gives a new meaning to wherever we ask zochrenu lechaim) Increasing good deeds and mitzos is not a way to 'stock up our bank account' so that we can 'pay' for what we want, it's a 'job trial' so that we will be able to 'put all our expenses on the company account'. Elul is a time of thinking and focusing on who/where we are now, and comparing it to where we want to be (spiritually) so that when RH comes we are ready to 'apply for the best job with all the benefits included'

amother

Mon, Sep 04 2023, 7:59 pm

bakingmom wrote:

Try telling this to people in shul. That the things they're davening for aren't really for this world. So when we daven and say zachreinu l'chaim, we don't mean in this word, we mean in the spiritual world. Is it the same with everything else? If we daven for menuchas hanefesh, it's not in this world? Healthy children, parnasah, and shiduchim? Is it all really in the spiritual sense?

PinkFridge

Mon, Sep 04 2023, 8:33 pm

amother Fuchsia wrote:

A few thoughts:
1) Davening is ALWAYS good, even if you're in a rut. Even if you're in a long-term rut.
Rabbi Reisman has a moshol that I know I've shared. Used to be people would wait till the traveling timepiece repairman came to fix all their clocks etc. Now, if people would keep the mechanisms wound up, then they would be fixable. But if they just let them sit and did nothing, the insides would atrophy and they would be unfixable.

So it's always good to daven. Of course one doesn't want to spend her life going through the motions, but we should never not daven just because we're having a crisis of faith.

(Please note: this is a different thing than having a hard time davening because one doesn't believe. I have an insight into such pain, even a teeny one. I'm talking about people who would be willing to daven even if it's hard or they're not sure what to believe anymore.

There's another thought, a famous idea on the words al levavecha in Shema. Why is it al, on, and not b', in? Because sometimes we're closed, we're blocked up, and it doesn't penetrate. But it's all there, waiting on the outside for that crack of a little belief and being open to possibilities, and then it all goes in. So I would never discourage any learning and davening. It's there, it really is.

2) The law of attractions is an interesting thing. I'm open to the possibility that there is something to it. But if I don't buy into it fully am I missing something? Should I not bother altogether?
Why tell someone that it might not be her calling to be religious when there is still value to the actions and sticking around?

3) Kol hakavod for mentioning Rebbetzin Halberstadt's excellent series. It's also available on TorahAnytime. My kosher phone app has her as a guest speaker.

PinkFridge

Mon, Sep 04 2023, 8:35 pm

amother OP wrote:

This is more related to your post than fuschia's: Rabbi Krohn tells this story, of his encounter with Rav Schwab, zt"l, a few weeks before his father's petirah. He and his brother were in Washington Heights for Shabbos to be with their father and he met Rav Schwab who asked how his father was doing. Rabbi Krohn said, "I have bitachon that Hashem will make him better."
Rav Schwab said, "Young man, that is not bitachon. Bitachon is that you have faith that whatever Hashem chooses for your father is the best thing."

amother

PlumPink

Mon, Sep 04 2023, 9:12 pm

amother OP wrote:

Yes. I believe that when we daven using specific words directly asking hashem for something.....we are asking hashem for that something. Is there another way to see it?

For example, if I say, Please hashem I'm your dear daughter who understands that you are in control of everything. You are full of rachimim and love. I plead with you to please bless my family and I with health this year. Are you saying that this tefilah wasn't asking for health?

No, but are YOU saying that after that tefila if you find out you are sick with Lyme c”v then it was a wasted tefila which was clearly not understood in the way you intended it to be? Did Hashem just get confused? (“Oops, when you said Health, I thought you said lyme disease, my bad!”)
I didn’t mean to say it’s a trick word game, that when you pray for wealth, you are actually praying for poverty and oops now that you know the secret if you pray for poverty you’ll get rich. Lol.
Like you said, when you pray for something, yes are asking for it. But is that the goal of your prayer? Does it end there?
I don’t know you and I don’t know your background, but I personally have something called RBYT. Residual Bais Yaakov Trauma. I don’t mean to bash our school system or my teachers or anyone involved in chinuch, but the fact is they are given an almost impossible task, to teach a group of 20-30 restless kids a whole lot in the time frame of pretty quick attention span. They have all my utmost respect. That being said, I can only speak from personal experience. To me there are certain aspects of religion that the older I got and the more of my own research and learning that I did, I realized I had developed completely twisted mindsets towards. Prayer is one of those. For as long as I can remember, prayer meant standing and sitting and standing and sitting while mumbling or repeating words that may as well have been a chinese phone book for all I understood of it. We were rewarded for keeping our finger on the place, for not spacing out, for saying the words as loudly as we could. I’m not saying that I have any better way to teach kids how to daven. But I will say that that exercise is not Tefilla.
The older I got, the more I built a relationship with Hashem and the more I learnt how to use the time of Prayer to connect with Him. Even if it meant speaking in my own words, even if some days all I wanted to tell Him was how angry or hurt I was and that I don’t feel like davening today.
That’s the goal of prayer. Connection.
And while yes, it would be nice if you could hear Him speaking back to you. If you could make a request and have it fall in your lap a minute later. But then you sort of made Hashem into a vending machine. That wont build your relationship at all.
This is all a lot easier to talk about then it is to live it day by day, but it’s still important to understand what you’re doing and why. Whenever I feel myself getting bored out during davening and feeling that sense of burden when I look at my siddur I know subconsciously I’m back in 1st grade. Sometimes I’ll even close my siddur and reset my brain. This is not about just saying words I don’t understand and I may not feel like I can relate to right now. This is not about what I have to do get that prize at the end of the davening chart. I am an adult now. And this is about me, Hashem and my life.
Obviously, a big part of our relationship is that He is the one who runs my life. And obviously I will tell Him my very humble (and sometimes not so humble) opinions on what I think should be happening in said life. Sometimes it works out the way I wanted it to and sometimes it does not.
Why it doesn’t….thats a whole different topic.
Sorry for rambling but does this all make sense?

amother

Jade

Mon, Sep 04 2023, 9:29 pm

amother PlumPink wrote:

Thank you for sharing your perspective. I can relate.

amother

Royalblue

Mon, Sep 04 2023, 10:07 pm

amother OP wrote:

I just want to address the part that you believe is false. This concept is huge in yiddishkeit and may be your missing factor.
Bitachon (trust in hashem) has the power to have our tefillos answered or not. Its not false or dangerous. Its a fact.
There are so many rashi’s on this.

Tefilla is also about our relationship with hashem not only to get answered.
Perhaps you may want to look into speeches on true bitachon and true tefilla. Your neshama is obviously very holy because it’s questioning and not happy with superficial answers.

bakingmom

Tue, Sep 05 2023, 10:12 am

amother OP wrote:

No, we are asking for things in this world, in order that we can enrich our spiritual world. eg please give me parnassa so that I can send my kids to Jewish schools and teach them all they need to know to connect to You, give me menuchas hanefesh so that I have the headspace and emotional capacity to do Your mitzvos with kavanna, to raise my children well, to {fill in the blank}. When we realise that the things that we are asking for are not end goals but a means to a more connected life, we are showing Hashem that we need these things, and will use them well. If your kid asks for a bag of lollypops, you will likely say no. If he asks for a bag of lollypops cos he wants to share with his friends and make a siyum, yoa are more likely to say yes.

amother

PlumPink

Tue, Sep 05 2023, 9:14 pm

bakingmom wrote:

Using your mashal with the lollypops, I feel like my response will be more along the lines of “Trust me if I say no that it’s for your own good, don’t start coming up with tricks to get me to say yes.”

I think that’s a very high level to only want anything in life for spiritual reasons. Cant I just want health because I’m afraid of pain? Can’t I want to be financially secure just because I don’t want to be poor? I don’t think its fair to expect the average human being to want things in life only for spirituality. We are not angels. We are people.

bakingmom

Wed, Sep 06 2023, 6:26 am

amother PlumPink wrote:

But that's the point of RH, it's about connecting to the deepest part of ourselves, and realizing what we really want. It's not about making excuses and coming up with tricks to ask for things, its genuinely wanting things in order to do the correct things with them. Yes, if your child is using the reason of making a siyum as a trick to get the lollypops, you will say no but if he really does learn and make a siyum you will (I hope!) give him the lollypops. RH is about thinking where we really want to be, where we are aiming for, and giving us direction for the coming year. Yes we are human, and practicalities mean that we will stumble on the way, and we may get misdirected but it's about picking ourselves up and pointing ourselves in the direction that we want to be heading, and asking Hashem for help to get there.

Think about why you do not want pain. Why you do not want to be poor. Of course it's to make things easier, more pleasant for you, but deep down we all want a life of meaning, and pain poverty challenges etc all distract us from having a meaningful life. If everything was going easy and you were floating through life with everything you wanted and not a care in the world, it would be great for a while but after a while you would feel aimless and meaningless. RH is a time to take stock of where we are and where we want to get to, and renavigate. It's ok to want to enjoy the journey (by having health, money etc) and we are meant to take pleasure in it, but we need to have somewhere we are heading towards.

PinkFridge

Wed, Sep 06 2023, 8:37 am

amother PlumPink wrote:

Bear with me:
There's a concept of yiras Hashem that's beautiful. Maybe lofty. It says that yirah is the flip side of ahavah. If you love someone, you'll set boundaries so that you don't hurt them. You'd never serve an allergenic food to someone you care for who is allergic to that food.
But honestly, most of us are scared, and operate on yiras ha'onesh mode.

They're both legitimate, but one is aspirational, and maybe we can get there, or be there more often than the other kind.

Re your bolded: Absolutely. But honestly though, ask yourself what the rest of the story. Why don't you want to be poor? Why does pain scare you? What wouldn't one be able to do (one, not you) if s/he were poor or unhealthy that's so important to keep doing in life? If you keep asking questions, you get to a deeper story.

ETA: I just read bakingmom's post and see there's overlap. I'll let this stand, though.

amother

Hyacinth

Mon, Oct 16 2023, 10:58 am

I've been thinking about this question/topic and I just wanted to add my 2 cents even though we're past Elul. I think one of the big reasons to daven and prepare is for oneself. I think of the story of when the Baal Shem Tov asked a water carrier how things were going. One day he said things were difficult, the next day he was able to see the good in the same situation. Similarly, a large part of nisyonos is our outlook which is related to our relationship with Hashem. I had a challenge last year which was objectively much less difficult than other challenges I've had in the past. Yet I had a difficult time. The most difficult part of it was feeling alone, struggling with questions, and feeling a weakness in my relationship with Hashem. Even though the challenge was not so objectively difficult, my suffering in the specific situation was. So OP your question gave me a lot to think about. Although I don't have an answer to your specific questions, I feel like davening in Elul and drawing closer to Hashem gives a person tools to deal with whatever they have that year because they don't feel alone; they feel Hashem is with them, and that is the biggest comfort. So some of the work of Elul is for us: to support us, to give us tools of connection and bitachon, and recalibrate what is truly important in life and give us perspective on life.