Daughter became extreme after seminary

amother

Pearl

Tue, Nov 21 2023, 1:56 am

My sister became extreme Frumkeit-wise in H.S.

Very long shlumpy skirts with no shape, hours long davening, Brachos with intense concentration...

It was caused by anxiety and she was treated with DBT/CBT for it, but in the beginning my parents kept saying how amazing she is bla bla until they realized it was actually an issue.

She ended up marrying the "coolest" guy from all my siblings

amother

Currant

Tue, Nov 21 2023, 2:32 am

amother OP wrote:

Thank you all for your insight, and support.

I wish there was a mentor/rav/rebbitzen we could speak with together with her. But I think that any rav/mentor who we have shaychus to (yeshivish world) is not someone she would "hold by". She might nod respectfully, but then tell herself that the world she wants to be a part of is holier. She doesn't necessarily see "normal" as a good thing. She has told us herself that there are other variations of normal.

Unfortunately, the seminary mentors she thinks highly of are pretty extreme. I spoke with one when I visited my daughter while she was in seminary, and I came out a bit shaken.

I am pretty well connected to the very top yeshvish seminary world, and while she may have gravitated towards the more "extreme" personalities, all of them have teachers and rabbanim who are working there who also have a good handle on mental health, and would be able to help you and her figure out if this is coming from a healthy spiritual place, and she just needs to find her "niche" - or if there is something deeper that needs to be dealt with. Which is very possible - some very public OTD people have had these stages, and in my humble opinion it has a lot to do with black and white thinking and a perception of all or nothing.

I think everyone needs to remember that there is a war in Israel now, and many people with more spiritual tendencies are really pushing themselves towards growth, and she may just really need guidance on finding balance

I think that showing her that you love and accept her, and want to work with her in finding her derech will go a long way. As will really immersing herself in whatever the community she wants to join (she needs to do that for shidduchim anyways), helping her find mentors and people who are healthy and happy in those communities and help expose her to some of the difficulties and problems they deal with can help her make an informed choice.

Someone mentioned Rav Asher Weiss - while he is an incredible talmid chochom, I do not think that this would be an appropriate address for someone you are describing, but there are other addresses who are very right wing/ extreme hashkafically while still being well informed on mental health and can help you both figure out health and balance with the derech she is choosing.

The perfect, completely inaccessible figure would be Reb Yitzchak Zilberstein, who has the chassidishkeit and is accepted by the more extreme communities, but is very balanced and has a very derchea darchei noam approach.
I have ideas of other, more accessible rabbanim in this vein, but would recomedn one name if she went to Hadar, another if she went to Bnos Yehudis, a third if she went to Tehilas.....
Same with mentors - every single seminary has some incredibly insightful and tuned in staff members, and I would be happy to pm you some ideas.

camp123

Tue, Nov 21 2023, 3:06 am

I think you must find a healthy on the ball rav that she will respect that you both talk to. Your main aim should be working out of this is coming from a healthy place or not. You need to accept that she may want to live a different life to you. Once she sees you accept and respect this, you can then work with her to make sure it's coming from a healthy, balanced place

amother

Rose

Tue, Nov 21 2023, 4:14 am

LovesHashem wrote:

Waking up at 4am to daven maariv doesn't sound extreme to any of you????

Has she had any mental health issues in the past?

I've done this. Don't think there's anything wrong with it.
I knew if I missed maariv it would be hard to get back on track, so I went to sleep to get rest and recover, and at 4 am I felt well enough to daven.
No issues there

amother

Rose

Tue, Nov 21 2023, 4:24 am

amother Yolk wrote:

I re-read your post OP and it’s clear this isn’t just a temporary thing. According to what you said, dd wasn’t happy with the chilled oot derech she grew up in and had said that all along, and she pushed hard to go to this kind of seminary. Sounds like it was a very inspiring year for her bH. I think you should be proud of having a daughter who aspires to grow, even though it’s painful to feel in some way judged as “less than”. I would do everything you can to maintain the warm strong relationship you have with her, and support her and help her find her way in a new culture.

I know so many people who were once idealistic flipouts, and stayed that way and are raising beautiful families bH. You should have only nachas from her and your boys!

THIS!!!
Thank you for not being dramatic-- so many people move more to the right in a way that may seem extreme to their families, and then marry and raise beautiful, healthy families without ever "crashing" or "coming down"
I'm an example Smile

and I wouldn't change my lifestyle for anything.

amother

Rose

Tue, Nov 21 2023, 4:31 am

amother Yellow wrote:

I agree. In fact, most chassidim hold women aren't even allowed to daven mairev.

What in the world?
Why wouldn't a women be "allowed" to daven maariv?!

amother

Junglegreen

Tue, Nov 21 2023, 5:14 am

amother OP wrote:

I have one daughter (and a bunch of boys). She is a lovely, smart, good person. She's always had a drive to be more frum, more yeshivish than our family, and she has made it very clear that she doesn't appreciate our healthy, chilled, out-of-town frum community.
I was really not looking forward to sending her to seminary, but there really isn't any other choice for out-of-town girls. And she pushed for it so hard. We sent her to a top, very frum school, because that's where top, smart, frum girls go.
And if I was worried beforehand... all that worry is justified. She came home wanting to have nothing to do with our family, just dreaming at every second of seminary and wanting to go back to Eretz Yisrael. She had long had a certain career plan, and now changed to something very practical and quick, which is not a problem at all, except that she had never expressed any interest in this area. She now keeps chalav yisrael, tosfos shabbos, wears only dark and dowdy clothes. Again, none of these things are problematic at all, it's just the package that's really worrisome. It's been 6 months now, and although she has bH become closer to our family, smaller and more worrisome things keep popping up. She keeps wanting to cut her hair shorter and shorter, even though it's already so refined, shoulder-length. She listens to shiurim all day - but not mainstream shiurim for frum women, but men's shiurim in yiddish (and we don't speak yiddish! though she has been actively trying to learn). She is obsessed with chassidish lifestyle and kids - which again is not intrinsically a problem, just that our family is very litvish. She has expressed that she would be ok shaving her head (again, only a problem since that is so far from our mesorah). She davens shacharis, mincha and maariv - again something beautiful for a single girl, except that we just found out that recently, when she was feeling unwell, she went to bed without davening maariv and therefore set her alarm clock to 4 am so that she could get in her maariv before morning! I do not think this is normal for a mainstream BY type girl. She learns in multiple chaburos with seminary friends.

We were planning on holding off shidduchim no matter what, so at least that's not a pressure yet. But it's very clear that she is not going to "come down" from her seminary la-la land. I'm concerned that she is not in a healthy place. While I'd love to have her speak with some rabbanim and rebbitzens in our community, I don't think it will help, since she sees them as "lower level" than the extreme rebbitzens she met in seminary and who she idolizes. She sees things as, and appreciates, very black and white.
My husband tried to have a conversation with her recently but I'm afraid it just strengthened her resolve to be more and "better" than our family and our community. I can't even imagine that any type of shidduch redt to her by anyone who knows us (and thinks they know her) will be "good enough" (ie frum, extreme enough) for her.

Do I just accept that she wants a life that is very, very different than ours? I am concerned that she is not in a healthy place, but at the same time, I'm sure the parents of baalei teshuva feel the same way. I'm afraid that if I fight for her to return to what we consider a "normal" and healthy frum place, that all I'll do is alienate her more. On the other hand, as a mother, I know that I need to make sure she is safe.

I have only 1 daughter, and I feel like I've lost her.

OP, nothing here is balanced or coherant. And nothing can be blamed on her seminary.

The weird mashup of "things" is somebody confused.

She needs help. Probably an evaluation for OCD or other things.
After that, because you dont want to feed the ocd, she needs a mentor. Nope, she does not have one of shes acting all confused mashup like this.

The "top" BY seminaries are not led by, and do not have atttending them, people who shave their head. And no one that chassidish would send to seminary so its not her friends
So where did she pick this up? Chessed or shobbos by someone chassidish?

Look girls from "chilled" oot families often come back frummer. Their hair is shorter. They may have figured out that a "frum" degree makes more sense. They might be davening 3x a day and if they are makpid, yes theyre going to make sure they daven, even waking up in the middle of the night.
....thiis maariv one actially sounds like "normal " behavior... so the above is normal.
Its everything else that's off the wall.
Ok, short hair above her shoulders maybe off the wall too.

Shlumpy clothes? Definitely not learned in sem. Chassidish? What in the world?

If you have any familiarity with yeshivish culture you will know that the extreme end of yeshivishkeit (and thus what she might have picked up in a sem classroom) is NOT chassidism, and definitely NOT a shaved head. Thats an entire different direction. This is not the rebbetzins in seminary.

And you mention shidduchim (or pushing it off), but did I miss your paragraph on kollel? That is where a BY educated girl is flipping out in 95% of the cases. Especially one aa extreme as your dd and as into learning (though maybe thats consistent with her chassidish fling. Hmmmm.). this is where even girls with fathers still learning sometimes manage to become "even more", because at 19, you can always be more extreme. You did not talk about this and how her views line up or dont with yours.
That is also weird.
And shes still willing to go for more schooling in any capacity and work outside of a school?
She drank a different kool aid than "extreme vision" they are pushing in the BY sems.

I think you yourself need some mentors to help you understand and sort out dd in your own mind.
Not sure who to recommend as anyone I know is yeshivish.
You can start by calling the teachers she "idolizes" and try to understand their haehkafic view. What did she learn in sem? (Be prepared for them to push something looking more like my previous paragraph and less how you described dd) . I think if you describe dd theyll encourage you to get her help.

You can call Rav Forscheimer in Lakewood, the top BMG posek, for shailas. (Not chassidish though). He's pretty accessible. Just call his study number. You/dd can start with the cholov yisrael issue if its causing you problems at home. I actually have no idea what he'll say.

amother

Junglegreen

Tue, Nov 21 2023, 5:38 am

amother Rose wrote:

and I wouldn't change my lifestyle for anything.

How does her dd's chassidish ideation, hotline calling, davening hakpodos mashup come together as anything healthy to you?

amother

Rose

Tue, Nov 21 2023, 5:48 am

amother Junglegreen wrote:

How does her dd's chassidish ideation, hotline calling, davening hakpodos mashup come together as anything healthy to you?

Her daughter is trying to grow.
It takes time to figure out what methods of growth will work, and which won't
She is attracted to Chassidus because she sees the lifestyle as more sheltered and more connected to Hashem (in her eyes). Some people become Chassidish. Nothing wring with that.
Hotline calling-- she wants to learn more. She may be listening to shiurim that are not helping her yet, but all she is trying to do is access more torah.
I have the same davening hakpados that OP described. When in seminary, I got a Bracha from Rebbetzin Kolodetsky that if I daven shacharis, Mischa, and maariv every day and never miss, I will be zoche to have banim yirei shamayim and a husband who is a Talmud chacham. To me those are incredible ideals and I am more than willing to lose a little sleep in order not to miss any tefillos. I ravened all three tefillos daily when I had flu, post partum, etc. And it's wonderful!

lamplighter

Tue, Nov 21 2023, 6:21 am

What concerns me is the mash up of extremes she is choosing. There is no way she learned this mash up from her top BY seminary. Hair shaving, davening with extreme dedication, shuirim in yiddishe, dowdy clothes aren't a derech.
I would consider a mental health angle, not because she flipped out but because she clearly is not following a mentor/hadracha, she has created her own called "holiest thing I can thing to do". Some of it seems OCD. Some of it seems like a trauma response. I am not a therapist so I do not know, but I would speak to a therapist who hopefully can ask the right questions (to you) and can guide you through this.
You sound like a great mother and as you work this out with some professional guidance just love love love her.

amother

Honeydew

Tue, Nov 21 2023, 6:53 am

LovesHashem wrote:

Waking up at 4am to daven maariv doesn't sound extreme to any of you????

Has she had any mental health issues in the past?

Lol I am far from extreme, BH no mental health issues, very normal yeshivishe-lite, and I did this in my later teens. It wasn't a big deal.

I'd be much more worried about idealizing a lifestyle she's only seeing from the outside, as she is doing with chassidish life.

Because everything else, even if she "cools down" over a few years of marriage will still be normal yeshivish frum.

But if she married a boy who expects her to only speak Yiddish in the home, shave her head, and send her kids to chassidish mosdos (all things a chassidish boy has a right to not want to compromise on), she is making major commitments that she can't "cool down".

amother

Tealblue

Tue, Nov 21 2023, 7:44 am

Didn't read most of the replies.

I understand you're gathering info here, but these are anonymous women who browse this website giving very certain advice, who have never met you or your daughter. She's young & finding her way & I sometimes find it infuriating how strangers are so quick to be so certain here in their assessment of a situation. To try on more extremes might be cause for concern & might need to be addressed; it may be a mental health issue but not necessarily.

If you haven't already, please consider utilizing help from a wise, normal reputable person maybe educator, rav or Rebbetzin, but someone wise who understands being mechanech the child as an individual. (If they are accessible, Debbie Greenblatt? Rabbi Dov Brezak? Rabbi Yaakov Horowitz? Rabbi Dovid Bashevkin? Someone whom you admire & is accessible in your community?)

My 2 cents are, if your eyes are focused on her being extreme, she might be defensive & dig her heels in more. So I think these kinds of things with our children are not an overnight matter, it's a process. She's technically an adult now. And if you're a warm safe haven for her, open to what she's drawn to, then she at least has more room to try different hats on religiously & not feel judged but rather might let you more in on her process.

amother

Forestgreen

Tue, Nov 21 2023, 7:58 am

I was the extreme daughter, and after 6 months or so, my parents got worried. A mentor was able to help me ground myself and have a balance what I wanted to grow in and not annihilate the people around me.

amother

Apricot

Tue, Nov 21 2023, 9:22 am

I have a relative who grew up litvish and married chasidish. She seems to have OCD and I’m pretty sure that’s what motivated the change. Her children still suffer to this day from her OCD. She is extreme in their community and they are embarrassed of her and bitter towards Judaism because of how she made it so much harder than it has to be.

amother

Wine

Tue, Nov 21 2023, 9:25 am

amother Junglegreen wrote:

This this this.

A real BY top seminary girl who was extremely influenced will be talking Abt how she wants her husband to be in kollel forever. No, chinuch is not good enough. Unless he will be a rebbi for beis Medrash, maybe. But really just limud Hatorah is the ideal. Don't worry so much about parnassah. It will be okay. Like the chelek of leviim.
She wants to marry a huge talmid chacham who is on his way to finishing Shas- bavli and yerushalmi

And Eretz Yisrael!! She totally would like to live in EY forever. Be mistapek bemuat. Send her sons to cheder meah shearim.

And I'm not hearing any of this in OP.

behappy2

Tue, Nov 21 2023, 9:37 am

amother Rose wrote:

and I wouldn't change my lifestyle for anything.

And many ppl marry intense ppl like themselves and raise a new generation of unhealthy kids.

behappy2

Tue, Nov 21 2023, 9:42 am

To me it doesn't seem at all like OCD, but instead a severe intensity to yiddishkeit. It's not Frum. It's not how Hashem wants us to be. More than that it's just unhealthy. It could be a personality or mental health issue. I agree with trying to get her professional help if she is open to it. Of course don't say that it's because she is so Frum. Many ppl use frumkeit as a coping mechanism just like other ppl use food or self harm etc..

There is so much more I would say but this is a public forum.

Chayalle

Tue, Nov 21 2023, 10:14 am

amother Wine wrote:

LOL in some ways (to a lesser extreme. Minus the meah shearim kids) this was me at age 19.

But I have seen people who for whatever reason gravitate to a different stream than their family. I don't automatically assume someone who wants to marry Chassidish rather than yeshivish is mentally ill.

However I doubt she will marry someone mainstream Chassidish. Her best bet is actually someone ultra yeshivish who might, together with her, move toward a Chassidish lifestyle. I know people like this. Their kids will be Chassidish, and they might also be by the time they are making weddings.

amother

Junglegreen

Tue, Nov 21 2023, 10:29 am

amother Rose wrote:

Its the mashup thats the concern.

Perhaps it takes time. But sometimes it comes from an unhealthy place.
Parents need to be alert.

My older by daughters daven maariv and are just as makpid on it as shachris/mincha. I am at times too - this is usually the "zchus" I add on. So Im with you (and labelled this aa normal for by girl in my post you quoted)

But shuirim in yiddish?
Mens shuirum? Why isnt she listening to the chassishe vaibeshe shuirim in yiddish? (Thats extreme too, but less "weird")
Why not the normal english torah anytime that growing ladies listen to. I have neighbors that play Torah Anytime while cooking, in the car...its the yiddish.

The clothes, the chassidish ideation and idealization when she knows nothing of chassidish culture and values, she did not learn it in sem! She will not be accepted in the chassidish world and would not get the caliber shidduch she could get in the non chassidish world. Not saying she cant become chassidish, but thats why you dont see it so often unless the family is already heavily heimish leaning.

Ot sounds like op is accepting and wants to give her dd time to "find herself", just wants to make sure shes not seeing red flags.

I think "finding yourself" is great, and maybe all thats needed here is time.

But this seems to be a wild mashup, as many ppsters said, it could represemt more than "finding yourself". A call to her sem principal is in order. Shes best situated to know if this is "finding yourself" or somewhere else.

I want to encourage op that the sem is not encouraging this lifestyle. She mentioned they felt extreme when she met them, and they may be. But this is not their lifestyle and they will be able to guide op as to whether her dd is behaving in the range of normal finding herself.

amother

Topaz

Tue, Nov 21 2023, 10:55 am

amother Hawthorn wrote:

Dont have much advice cause without really knowing your daughter its hard to say.
But I just want to comment on this:

Quote:

I have only 1 daughter, and I feel like I've lost her.

Just imagine if she would've ch"v gone the other extreme. I know some people dont want to hear such comments, but I had a similar situation, and what really helped was constantly telling myself "B"h 100x she went this way and not the other way."

Imo, any extreme is unhealthy and can lead to toxicity.