Daughter became extreme after seminary

amother

Mon, Nov 20 2023, 12:43 pm

I have one daughter (and a bunch of boys). She is a lovely, smart, good person. She's always had a drive to be more frum, more yeshivish than our family, and she has made it very clear that she doesn't appreciate our healthy, chilled, out-of-town frum community.
I was really not looking forward to sending her to seminary, but there really isn't any other choice for out-of-town girls. And she pushed for it so hard. We sent her to a top, very frum school, because that's where top, smart, frum girls go.
And if I was worried beforehand... all that worry is justified. She came home wanting to have nothing to do with our family, just dreaming at every second of seminary and wanting to go back to Eretz Yisrael. She had long had a certain career plan, and now changed to something very practical and quick, which is not a problem at all, except that she had never expressed any interest in this area. She now keeps chalav yisrael, tosfos shabbos, wears only dark and dowdy clothes. Again, none of these things are problematic at all, it's just the package that's really worrisome. It's been 6 months now, and although she has bH become closer to our family, smaller and more worrisome things keep popping up. She keeps wanting to cut her hair shorter and shorter, even though it's already so refined, shoulder-length. She listens to shiurim all day - but not mainstream shiurim for frum women, but men's shiurim in yiddish (and we don't speak yiddish! though she has been actively trying to learn). She is obsessed with chassidish lifestyle and kids - which again is not intrinsically a problem, just that our family is very litvish. She has expressed that she would be ok shaving her head (again, only a problem since that is so far from our mesorah). She davens shacharis, mincha and maariv - again something beautiful for a single girl, except that we just found out that recently, when she was feeling unwell, she went to bed without davening maariv and therefore set her alarm clock to 4 am so that she could get in her maariv before morning! I do not think this is normal for a mainstream BY type girl. She learns in multiple chaburos with seminary friends.

We were planning on holding off shidduchim no matter what, so at least that's not a pressure yet. But it's very clear that she is not going to "come down" from her seminary la-la land. I'm concerned that she is not in a healthy place. While I'd love to have her speak with some rabbanim and rebbitzens in our community, I don't think it will help, since she sees them as "lower level" than the extreme rebbitzens she met in seminary and who she idolizes. She sees things as, and appreciates, very black and white.
My husband tried to have a conversation with her recently but I'm afraid it just strengthened her resolve to be more and "better" than our family and our community. I can't even imagine that any type of shidduch redt to her by anyone who knows us (and thinks they know her) will be "good enough" (ie frum, extreme enough) for her.

Do I just accept that she wants a life that is very, very different than ours? I am concerned that she is not in a healthy place, but at the same time, I'm sure the parents of baalei teshuva feel the same way. I'm afraid that if I fight for her to return to what we consider a "normal" and healthy frum place, that all I'll do is alienate her more. On the other hand, as a mother, I know that I need to make sure she is safe.

I have only 1 daughter, and I feel like I've lost her.

106

amother

Crystal

Mon, Nov 20 2023, 12:49 pm

I'm LWMO but IMO none of these things are harmful enough to intervene with an adult.

Listening to men's shiurim in Yiddish is weird, but teens and young adults do a lot of weird things and IMO unless it's drugs, bomb-making etc, you just gotta let them try it and find out for themselves.

FWIW, I tried to learn Klingon when I was a teen 😳

BrisketBoss

Mon, Nov 20 2023, 12:49 pm

What makes you think she may not be safe? Many young adults try out extremes, and sometimes stick with them. This one does not seem particularly dangerous.

BrisketBoss

Mon, Nov 20 2023, 12:50 pm

amother Crystal wrote:

I think we'd get along, That's a warrior's language.

amother

Crystal

Mon, Nov 20 2023, 12:52 pm

Again, IME if you encourage her to hang out more with the kind of people she is idealizing, she is more likely to find out more quickly whether she actually wants to be like them, or if she is just idealizing them based on false assumptions "they always get along, all their families are haply, things always work out well in their system" etc.

If you try to keep her away, she will keep fantasizing about them and nothing in your real community will measure up to her unreal fantasies about them.

But also, you said for a while she's veen wanting to be more frum, so maybe it really is a match for her.

LovesHashem

Mon, Nov 20 2023, 12:55 pm

Waking up at 4am to daven maariv doesn't sound extreme to any of you????

Has she had any mental health issues in the past?

Rappel

Mon, Nov 20 2023, 12:57 pm

It sounds like she has chosen her life path... But she may be fantasizing things which don't exist in real life (ex: that everyone in her future community is as intense about learning and davening as she is)

Possible suggestion? Can you send her to visit in a community that she idealizes, so she sees how real people there live and think? If she likes it, then she's found her new spiritual home.

If she doesn't, then she may synthesize some of the strengths of your community with the strengths she's bringing to the table, and forge a path that she can maintain.

amother

Tan

Mon, Nov 20 2023, 12:59 pm

In my personal opinion, yes it does sound extreme

She is putting intense pressure in herself, sounds somewhat ocd maybe. Hope she doesn't eventually crash

BrisketBoss

Mon, Nov 20 2023, 12:59 pm

LovesHashem wrote:

Waking up at 4am to daven maariv doesn't sound extreme to any of you????

Has she had any mental health issues in the past?

Yeah it sounds extreme and also sounds like something a young adult would do and not need professional help for. In adolescence you try things on and do weird stuff.

amother

Foxglove

Mon, Nov 20 2023, 1:00 pm

I know girls who did similar after seminary.
They did "come down", but only after a couple of years, and once married
Its not easy to watch

amother

Trillium

Mon, Nov 20 2023, 1:00 pm

Maybe don't focus on the Hashkafos right now. Focus on her getting her further education so she can have money when she marries. Money for a home. Money to have a Husband in Kollel if that is what she wants.

Rappel

Mon, Nov 20 2023, 1:01 pm

LovesHashem wrote:

Waking up at 4am to daven maariv doesn't sound extreme to any of you????

Has she had any mental health issues in the past?

It does

But I think the oddest part is the consistency. If she were developing a new mental disorder, I think OP might have seen ups and downs, or intensive OCD/anxiety, and she hasn't. If anything, she said that her daughter has relaxed slightly back into her family relationships.

To me, it sounds like this very bright girl is flipping out hardcore, without a context for normalcy in her new path. She went back from seminary into an environment which she doesn't seem to consider religious, so she doesn't have a step forward out of the sem bubble and into the sensible world.

amother

Navy

Mon, Nov 20 2023, 1:02 pm

Doesnt sound healthy to me, and Im a flip out who came back from sem super frum. it took years for me to become comfortable in my skin and in my yiddishkeit.The seminary bubble is lala land. I had all of my teachers say how amazing kollel is and how thats the only way a marriage should start etc... but they also didnt talk about the practical part like how all their parents bought them apartments and supported them. So for me as a BT I looked at it as the ideal and had a hard reality crash when I came back and was in shidduchim.
I assume she only is open to dating learning guys. Are you and your husband supporting this lifestyle choice?Does she want to start shidduchim?

Chayalle

Mon, Nov 20 2023, 1:03 pm

I think these types of things are hard because it's hard to know if they are coming from a healthy place - a person's neshama can have a different leaning than their family's mesorah - or a place of OCD or something similar.

I think the thing that would be most worrisome would be areas of relationships. I myself chose a path that is somewhat to the right of my family - married a long-term Kollel DH, and my family is JPF, not their mesorah - but I'm very, very close to my family and siblings, no looking-down-on, just, this is what spoke to me and works for who I am.

I will say that some of this is typical adolescence, they think they know so much better than their parents, and don't trust them with lifelong decisions, which is such a shame because their parents have wisdom to offer even if they are different.

OP as much as possible I would avoid opposing your daughter. Work with who she is, so that she trusts you. You will be better able to help her that way, especially with anything long-term.

amother

Midnight

Mon, Nov 20 2023, 1:03 pm

6 months back is very short. I'd say it takes most girls who go such an extreme in seminary a year or two to come back to themselves.
The only thing that sounds unusual is a sudden turn to chassidus, trying to learn in Yiddish, and talking about shaving etc...that just isn't something pushed by seminaries in EY which are geared for litvish (though there are some students in some of the frummer ones who come from chassidish families). That doesn't seem like something she would have picked up in seminary.

little neshamala

Mon, Nov 20 2023, 1:04 pm

LovesHashem wrote:

Waking up at 4am to daven maariv doesn't sound extreme to any of you????

Has she had any mental health issues in the past?

Definitely sounds extreme, none of this sounds healthy-the main concern for me is how quickly amd intensely she changed.
If this was a gradual process over the course of 5 years, I'd be fine with it. Good for her, shes found herself.
But this was over less than a year.
I completely understand OP for being worried.

anonymous mom

Mon, Nov 20 2023, 1:05 pm

This does not sound healthy to me at all. I went through a similar phase in high school although not as extreme. Looking back I can say I lacked maturity and life experience (I thought I was sooo mature). It's ok to experiment, although your daughter's thinking is sounding very fear based and rigid (almost ocd like). Give her time, hopefully she'll come around and settle.

In the meantime love her as much as possible and show respect for the life she's chosen. It is so important to keep that relationship healthy.

Lastly, please don't marry her off yet, she does not sound ready for marriage while she's in a self discovery phase.

Last edited by anonymous mom on Mon, Nov 20 2023, 3:21 pm; edited 1 time in total

amother

Springgreen

Mon, Nov 20 2023, 1:06 pm

I 100% agree with you. Each individual item is not of concern, but the package seems extremist. Can you reach out to her mentor from sem.? You are correct that she should not be dating.

Does she have HS friends? Does she hang out with them?
I have no advice.

Success10

Mon, Nov 20 2023, 1:06 pm

These girls always wind up coming back down to Earth in the end. But some of them get married before that happens and honestly I'm not sure if it's the best thing, because each spouse can "land" in a different spot when they come down.

bigsis144

Mon, Nov 20 2023, 1:07 pm

BrisketBoss wrote:

I think we'd get along, That's a warrior's language.

I could write in tengwar (Tolkien’s Elvish script) when I was in my late teens…. Gotta start a spinoff