my challah is too dry! advice?

ss321

Tue, Jul 15 2008, 12:30 am

well, the title says it all. I can post the recipe if someone thinks that might help them figure it out....but really my questions is simple. I dont have a bread machine. I knead it by hand. am I not kneading it enough? am I over kneading it?? should I try adding more oil or eggs? I feel like if I add more oil, its too sticky to work with. any ideas? could it just be the temperature? I bake it at 325. any advice?

miichal

Tue, Jul 15 2008, 12:42 am

a couple things, when your kneading and you feel the dough is a bit sticky, dont add more flour, add a bit of oil instead. adding more water to the original recipe may be a good idea as well. I have started using recipes with a lot of water and the texture is so much better. when you bake it, if they are big challahs, bake them at 375 for 20-25 minutes, and then lower the temp to 350 for another 20-25 minutes or until they are golden brown on top and on bottom. some of these tips are from tamar ansh's book, 'a taste of challah'

Pizza

Tue, Jul 15 2008, 3:19 am

Maybe you are cooking them a bit too long?
I try to undercook mine a bit, they come out more doughy and moist
If you cook yours for 40 minutes, maybe try taking one out at 30 minutes and one at 35, see which you like better (if at all Smile

)

Tamiri

Tue, Jul 15 2008, 9:11 am

Take your recipe. Follow it exactly. When you are finished kneading the dough, it should be sticky. Yes, sticky. Not like play dough. If it's sticky, it's time to let it rise. If you feel it's "too" sticky", as in does not hold together, add a tiny bit of flour at a time. For example, my 8 cup recipe takes anywhere between 7.5 - 8.5 cups flour, depending on the weather. But it's always sticky when I am done kneading. When it's finished rising, you can put flour on the board as you shape the loaves, and some flour on your hands to prevent sticking. The secret to moist, cake-like challa is not to add too much flour. That's all.

ss321

Tue, Jul 15 2008, 11:08 am

miichal wrote:

a couple things, when your kneading and you feel the dough is a bit sticky, dont add more flour, add a bit of oil instead.

how can I add more oil? I feel like that will just make it worse - even stickier. It is so sticky I cant work w/ it at that point...

ss321

Tue, Jul 15 2008, 11:10 am

Pizza wrote:

Maybe you are cooking them a bit too long?

DEFINITELY not. I probably cook them for only 20-30 min. And theyre NOT tiny challos. We like them undercooked, where its like on the verge of raw - all dough-ey. But even if the BOTTOM inside part is doughey how we like it, the top part is still flaky and dried out. So that is why I dont think its a timing thing - more a recipe problem.

ss321

Tue, Jul 15 2008, 11:13 am

Tamiri wrote:

so my recipe calls for 7 cups. it says first add the first 4 cups of flour, then add the next 3 as necessary. I usually add about six, a bit at a time (like 1/2 c at a time). I hear what youre saying about not "play dough" consistency - mine DEFINITELY IS play dough consistency. the thing is, if I DONT make it like that, I feel like I cant even knead it into a big ball and let it rise-because its all stuck to the sides of the bowl, gets stuck to my hands, etc. do you get what I mean? Because definitely what I want is more Cake like challos, and they are not. they are very crumply and dry....

Tamiri

Tue, Jul 15 2008, 3:09 pm

ss321 wrote:

Can you post your recipe? Did you copy it from somewhere (with maybe a little mistake)? Then, maybe we can figure out what is wrong. Adding water and oil is NOT the solution.
For example, I made a recipe with 7 cups/flour for pizza, and was able to knead it into an elastic dough with 2 cups water and 1/2 cup olive oil. The dough is not the same as challa dough. So maybe we need to check the proportions in your recipe.

cassandra

Tue, Jul 15 2008, 3:18 pm

Tamiri is right. I used to add flour to get the consistency is easy to shape. One week I tried a recipe that someone gave me and the dough was really goopy, to the point that I called her to double check the measurements. She told me to trust her, I did, and I had the lightest, fluffiest, softest challas ever. Flour creates density, so if you reduce the flour it won't be as dense.

miichal

Wed, Jul 16 2008, 1:38 am

oil makes it easier to work with, I dont know what the warm water does, but there are like 5-7 cups in the recipes ive been using and they come out cakey and delicious, each recipe works differently but ive pretty much perfected mine. goopy, sticky dough will be tough to shape, so they wont look as pretty.

Tamiri

Wed, Jul 16 2008, 1:48 am

(disclaimer: I have been making challot for over 20 years). Miichal, what you write does not jive with bakers' advice. If you think about it, you may have seen professional bread bakers with flour flying all over the place. THAT is what keeps the dough from sticking. They take out the slightly goopy dough, flour the surface they will work on and flour their hands. That is what enables them to shape the dough nicely. There is a BIG difference between loaves made with slightly stiff dough, and those made with slightly goopy dough.

miichal

Wed, Jul 16 2008, 1:55 am

tamiri, I dont hold a candle to your 20 years of challah baking, all I can say is that it works for me, I dont mean to take dough that has the consistancy of cake batter and add oil to make it less sticky, that would be ridiculus. I mean, if you are having sticking to hand issues while kneading or shaping, a good alternative to adding more flour and making your dough drier is to oil your hands and work surface (a little). I dont think its a good idea to add loads of flour to challah so its easier to shape.

Tamiri

Wed, Jul 16 2008, 2:11 am

What I do with my gloppy dough is oil it all around when I put it in the bowl to rise. Just a bit of oil. My recipe says to do that. Then, when I take the risen dough out, I work with a bit of flour on the board and my hands, and that does the trick.
I only recently (3) years allowed my dough to be so sticky. In all my years of making challa in the U.S. (16) I never had a real problem with the challot. They came out fine even with a stiffer dough. Once I started making the challa in Israel, I was faced with stiff challa syndrome. It was not light and fluffy, it was dense and hard-ish. So I consulted with someone who knows her stuff and she gave the the sticky-dough advice. She also gave me another trick: I take about half the dough, plus the water, yeast and 1 Tablespoon of sugar and mix. I let that rise for about 45 minutes until bubbly, then add the rest of the ingredients and let it rise again as usual, then shape. The challot come out incredible. They are elastic and light when fresh, cakey afterwards and after being frozen.

ss321

Sun, Jul 27 2008, 12:09 pm

UPDATE
first of all, thank you to everyone who posted tips!! I was going to post my challah recipe a few weeks ago, but then I got a bit busy, going into labor and all, and forgot about this thread. Anyhow, before I left for the hospital last wednesday, I put together some challah (my mom tells me its some sort of segulah? my sister finished kneading them a few hrs later and put them in the oven). I made challah again this past shabbos, and both times, they came out great - I think - thanks to a bit more oil (like 1/4 cup more than what the recipe called for- and I used olive oil cuz thats all I had- dunno if that made a difference or not), and about a cup less flour! yes it was REALLY sticky when I was kneading it, but it came out GREAT! A bit "heavy," but I love it that way. Thanks everyone!

Tamiri

Sun, Jul 27 2008, 12:20 pm

Good to hear back from you. There is still time ad 120 for you to post your recipe if you feel like it, so we can go over it. I am betting that the extra oil you added made the loaf heavy.
I took care to note how my dough was this week, to describe it to you. Totally sticky. I had to oil it for rising, turning the dough (difficult) to spread the oil on all sides. Then, when it came time to shape, I had to lightly flour the board and flour my hands, to keep the dough from sticking. The challa rose beautifully (1/2 cup oil to around 8 cups flour and 4 1/2 tsp yeast) and had a wonderful texture, like a good cake, with nice "holes" in it.

miichal

Mon, Aug 11 2008, 1:43 am

tamiri, id like to apologize, I made my challah this week and thought I should try out your tip about keeping the challah sticky, I did and after it rose it wasnt so hard to deal with, I didnt use flour in the shaping process though, I used a bit of oil to oil my hands, rolling pin and work surface and that kept it from sticking to e/t, it came out delicious and chewy (this is whole wheat)