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freilich
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 Thu, Dec 21 2023, 9:02 am
| esther7 wrote: | I feel like the frum magazines add to the problem tremendously. There are so many adverts that promote over the top gashmius. I understand that ads bring in revenue so it's a hard call for them... But always gets to me that they claim to be inspiring people with beautiful articles (and many articles really are inspiring), but are adding so much fuel to the "I need everything luxury" fire.
It's as if the content and ads are on completely different wavelengths |
Absolutely. These ads appear tone deaf at times.
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bsy
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Thu, Dec 21 2023, 9:14 am
| esther7 wrote: | I feel like the frum magazines add to the problem tremendously. There are so many adverts that promote over the top gashmius. I understand that ads bring in revenue so it's a hard call for them... But always gets to me that they claim to be inspiring people with beautiful articles (and many articles really are inspiring), but are adding so much fuel to the "I need everything luxury" fire.
It's as if the content and ads are on completely different wavelengths |
Am I the only one who feels so far removed from the ads that it doesn't bother me?
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amother
Blue
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Thu, Dec 21 2023, 9:34 am
| amother Poppy wrote: | | I think part of the reason we don't see rabbonim coming down too hard on gashmius is that it is viewed as a relatively "safe" or "clean" outlet and a lesser evil relative to what else is out there. And that it is better to provide Jewish outlets for indulging in gashmius than for people to seek it out in non-Jewish spaces. Similar to how vaping among yeshiva boys is tacitly tolerated. |
Many Rabbanim live this life themselves. Not all, but many.
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amother
Crystal
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Thu, Dec 21 2023, 9:36 am
Completely agree.
I made a conscious effort with my children to not fall into the “everyone has it, I need it” trap. It was hard because there were so many times they absolutely needed something that so and so had.
A lot of this starts at home. When children see their parents continuously give in to new trends or buy things to keep up with others, it sets a dangerous precedent, putting these items above the Torah.
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amother
Magenta
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Thu, Dec 21 2023, 9:36 am
| esther7 wrote: | I feel like the frum magazines add to the problem tremendously. There are so many adverts that promote over the top gashmius. I understand that ads bring in revenue so it's a hard call for them... But always gets to me that they claim to be inspiring people with beautiful articles (and many articles really are inspiring), but are adding so much fuel to the "I need everything luxury" fire.
It's as if the content and ads are on completely different wavelengths |
EXACTLY THIS!
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amother
Lightcoral
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Thu, Dec 21 2023, 9:37 am
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keym
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Thu, Dec 21 2023, 10:18 am
A previous poster said something about generational needs.
My grandparents all had washers but very few had dryers
My parents had dryers but very few dishwashers.
My generation had 1 dishwasher.
Now, standard is a fully kosher kitchen with 2 or 3 self clean ovens, 2 stainless steel sibks, and 2 dishwashers.
And we don't view that as a luxury like diamonds or mink or vacations because it's useful.
But at the same time, it's created a cycle where if we don't have it, we feel so lost and so without.
How many people here use only disposables all 8 days of Pesach because they don't kasher their dishwasher.
Again, there's nothing wrong with using disposables. It's the learned helplessness that forces us to have to spend even more that really bothers me for our kids
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zaq
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Thu, Dec 21 2023, 10:31 am
What neon green and esther7 said. I am literally sickened by the lavishness and ostentation of the Chinese auction prizes and the plethora (aw, come on, how often does one have the opportunity to use that word?) of conspicuous luxury goods in frum zines. And some of these pubs target communities with a sizable contingent of families living on public assistance or just plain struggling to make ends meet! It's one thing to see these things in Architectural Digest or the NY Times Sunday Magazine, which specifically address a secular, affluent and materialistic population. What's the Voice of Lakewood's excuse?
How can anyone teach or learn histapkut bamu'at when being bombarded by incessant messages and images of luxury-luxury-luxury. Quit worrying about kids being exposed to pictures of boys without kippot or girls with short sleeves and worry about the consumer-p*rn they see every day, in print and in real life.
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B'Syata D'Shmya
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Thu, Dec 21 2023, 10:32 am
| amother Apricot wrote: | I think that it is a bit more complicated then that.
Even people living very valuable and meaningful lives have a certain level of consumerism that is meaningless to them, that they don't even think about. And what your needs are change according to your surroundings - we all need refrigerators in 2024 - but they where only available to he very very rich in 1924.
I do think that there is a meaning void in the frum world. As the frum world explodes - the feeling of being needed and valuable has been replaced with the feeling of being a number and unimportant.
We aren't in the post - war era of rebuilding anymore or even in the Haskala era of ideological fights.
The struggles today are mental health, and the glitz and glamour of the permissiveness and zero boundaries in the outside world. This has led many people to use glitz and glamour to make there kids feel like they aren't missing everything, and because we live in a tight knit community with a big mix of income levels it creates a lot of peer pressure. |
Im not sure if there is a "meaning-void", or that the more meaning that exists in our world, the stronger the Yetzer Hara to counter it. We have Torah, we have Israel, We have family, We have Tefillah, We have Chessed opportunities galore. Something for everyone! There is more Jewish-content books, music, magazines, podcasts, videos, concerts, shiurim, libraries than ever. And yet we still feel empty, lonely, meaningless. The answers to all lie in Pirkei Avos, איזהו עשיר השמח בחלקו.
Problem is we have also not learned הקנעה התאווה והכבוד מוציא את האדם מהעולם.
We wont socialize with those who have less, (Yes, I know some of my best friends are on tuition assistance, but be honest,we are afraid that being Nebby is contagious). We have turned Gvirim into Tzaddikim and devalued Talmidei Torah and Rabbanim. We scoff at those who dont dress in top fashion labels, send their kids to the right camps where the canteen budget has to be a fortune, buy new boots as the fashion dictates even when last years are totally fine. We judge and compare and jealously want more and more. None of it satisfying us...only Torah can satisfy us.
If there is a meaning void, its because we have allowed ourselves to be blinded, we have put the emphasis on the wrong syllable.
Regarding the frum magazines: Ironically you are not allowed to look at the ads on Shabbos, according to Halacha, But since we all read the magazines mostly on Shabbos, the ads have to be louder, stealthier, sneakier to get under our skins, and YES, there is a dichotomy between the content and the ads in the frum magazines. After the war broke out, many readers criticized the war pictures. But are the ads any more educational?
I fear that children look down on their parents for not being able to give them the lifestyle that is shown in those magazines.
Interestingly enough, the Torah doesnt look down on wealth per se.
But wealth, is only worth what you do with it. Wealth is in the hands of Hashem. Consumerism is in ours.
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amother
Aster
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Thu, Dec 21 2023, 10:45 am
| amother Crystal wrote: | Completely agree.
I made a conscious effort with my children to not fall into the “everyone has it, I need it” trap. It was hard because there were so many times they absolutely needed something that so and so had.
A lot of this starts at home. When children see their parents continuously give in to new trends or buy things to keep up with others, it sets a dangerous precedent, putting these items above the Torah. |
Please teach me! How did you get the message over to your kids?
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amother
Electricblue
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Thu, Dec 21 2023, 10:47 am
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I’ve thought about the issue with the cars for years. 2 late model car leases, with insurance. That’s a lot of money.
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lamplighter
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Thu, Dec 21 2023, 10:52 am
I will post under my screenname and agree wholeheartedly.
We have become a materialistic society. Kids feel they need to fit in. The standard of the average lifestyle is so over the top. Used to be the rich has these kinds of simchas or clothes or homes. Now it's the norm for most people! But no one wants to be the nebach.
I attribute this to social media, oversharing, the frum magazines, the Chinese auctions and sites like between carpools. The promotion of materialism is destroying our communities and children.
We're frum yidden, were supposed to be better than this.
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amother
DarkKhaki
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Thu, Dec 21 2023, 10:55 am
| keym wrote: | A previous poster said something about generational needs.
My grandparents all had washers but very few had dryers
My parents had dryers but very few dishwashers.
My generation had 1 dishwasher.
Now, standard is a fully kosher kitchen with 2 or 3 self clean ovens, 2 stainless steel sibks, and 2 dishwashers.
And we don't view that as a luxury like diamonds or mink or vacations because it's useful.
But at the same time, it's created a cycle where if we don't have it, we feel so lost and so without.
How many people here use only disposables all 8 days of Pesach because they don't kasher their dishwasher.
Again, there's nothing wrong with using disposables. It's the learned helplessness that forces us to have to spend even more that really bothers me for our kids |
I really agree with all you said. Except making a statement like the bolded just adds to the problem. Reading that and seeing the likes really engrains ideas in the heads of the hundreds of women here that that is truly "standard". I don't believe it is really and truly standard. I do not have all of that in my kitchen and know many people who are the same.
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amother
Heather
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Thu, Dec 21 2023, 11:15 am
| Rappel wrote: | | Emptiness causes consumerism, just like any other vice. Fill the void with real genuine meaning, and then there is no more need to engage in material matters beyond our needs. |
Agree with this, but would put it slightly differently. Learn who you are, and learn to feel good about who you are, and the need to fit in diminishes.
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Chayalle
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Thu, Dec 21 2023, 11:16 am
| keym wrote: |
Now, standard is a fully kosher kitchen with 2 or 3 self clean ovens, 2 stainless steel sibks, and 2 dishwashers.
And we don't view that as a luxury like diamonds or mink or vacations because it's useful.
But at the same time, it's created a cycle where if we don't have it, we feel so lost and so without.
How many people here use only disposables all 8 days of Pesach because they don't kasher their dishwasher.
Again, there's nothing wrong with using disposables. It's the learned helplessness that forces us to have to spend even more that really bothers me for our kids |
I know a few people with your version of a standard fully kosher kitchen....but only a few. Definitely not standard.
(I do have 2 stainless sinks. I'm going to concentrate on feeling more wealthy now, when I wash the dishes!)
And the same people with the standard kosher kitchen have Pesach kitchens with dishwashers...but many of us don't, and do a combo of using china on YT and disposables for Chol HaMoed, for a balance of Simchas YT.
I think it's a problem when people start thinking we all have to be in the wealthier category to be happy, but I agree, it's hard to pass this down to our kids. They see so much around them. I think it's one of the biggest challenges in raising kids in today's generation - good old histapkus b'miut.
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amother
Rose
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Thu, Dec 21 2023, 11:18 am
| bsy wrote: | | Am I the only one who feels so far removed from the ads that it doesn't bother me? |
I'm the same, the ads are like from a different planet. Totally don't relate or care at all
BUT my kids are still very young. I'm very concerned about raising them in such a world. Just because dh and I are not influenced by consumerism and gashmiyus does not mean they won't be
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amother
Hyssop
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Thu, Dec 21 2023, 11:27 am
| esther7 wrote: | I feel like the frum magazines add to the problem tremendously. There are so many adverts that promote over the top gashmius. I understand that ads bring in revenue so it's a hard call for them... But always gets to me that they claim to be inspiring people with beautiful articles (and many articles really are inspiring), but are adding so much fuel to the "I need everything luxury" fire.
It's as if the content and ads are on completely different wavelengths | Yup. That's why I refuse to subscribe to frum magazines.
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keym
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Thu, Dec 21 2023, 11:31 am
| amother DarkKhaki wrote: | | I really agree with all you said. Except making a statement like the bolded just adds to the problem. Reading that and seeing the likes really engrains ideas in the heads of the hundreds of women here that that is truly "standard". I don't believe it is really and truly standard. I do not have all of that in my kitchen and know many people who are the same. |
I don't have these things. I'm grateful for what I do have. I should put standard in parentheses.
Or maybe I should have said that it's becoming more and more standard as opposed to massively luxurious.
I guess I'm thinking about house sales and rental advertisements.
My mil was telling me how 45 years ago when they bought their house, it advertised that it came with a washer and had dryer hookup capability. Now, no one advertises that in their house cause duh.
Around 15 years, we were looking to move, all the frum Lakewood advertisements were advertising either 2 ovens, or a dishwasher, or 2 stainless steel sinks. Meaning it was a selling point.
I just skimmed the weekly rental and sales sections. 2 ovens, or a dishwasher is not a real selling point. It's fairly typical.
Selling points are 2 dishwashers or 3 ovens or some other luxurious item.
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amother
Maroon
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Thu, Dec 21 2023, 11:32 am
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So curious, what over the top consumerism are magazines advertising? I see lots of sheitel ads, kids and ladies clothing, some hotel getaways. I've never been tempted by anything in there in the slightest, and neither have my kids.
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amother
Hyssop
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Thu, Dec 21 2023, 11:35 am
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