Is Kollel the root cause??

mha3484

Thu, Jan 04 2024, 2:09 pm

amother OP wrote:

I would never say this to anyone IRL because it goes against the values of my community, but does anyone else think that the kollel system in the yeshivish world is the root cause of so many financial issues facing the yeshivish world today?

For one, the yeshiva system “trains” many (not all, but many) single bachurim to completely shrug off any inborn, masculine responsibility they feel as providers. This all but ensures that when they get married they will feel too incapable, scared, uneducated, or entitled to truly give their all to making a parnassah.

Second, the kollel system strongly encourages staying in kollel until it does not financially work. The problem is that by that point it’s often too late for men to become successful in a high earning career, because they don’t have the luxury of starting off as low earner or going to school.

Men are also usually a few years older once they leave kollel and it’s harder for them to put aside their ego to take a job that they feel is “beneath them”, they only want to start with the best and unfortunately their experience and skills don’t match up with their demands…

Anyways, I feel like a lot of the issues that stem from the financial issues facing the yeshivish community- the double income trap, babies being left at babysitters too young, families not making it…. Many of them could have been avoided if the kollel system wasn’t pushed so aggressively on everyone regardless of their and their wives individual temperaments and capabilities.

Am I the only one who feels this way?

To me this is the real issue and I don't think its a kollel issue. Its "you issue". You have to solve this for yourself. I watched the Q&A at the agudah convention and one of the rabbonim said it used to be that bein hazmanim bachurim went to work at the local day camp or sleepaway camp now they all go on road trips with their friends. We are not encouraging as parents our boys to go work and be a leader.

We also have to tell them from when they are young kids that no job is beneath them and everyone starts from somewhere. I have friends who left kollel and took jobs that were really starting at the bottom because they had good values taught to them and 5/7/10 years later they all do okay.

I say this as the mother of 3 boys who is very pro kollel to some degree but I talk to them all the time about what I said above because I dont want to create entitled 27 year olds who wont go get a job.

amother

Lemonlime

Thu, Jan 04 2024, 2:13 pm

amother Celeste wrote:

Twenty years ao I thought that way but not anymore.

These days there are so many government programs that for a larger family there really is little financial benefit from working. My husband who is the financial industry in a community where a large precent of men are in kollel says he hears things like "I would love to get a job but I can't afford to" or "working is a luxury that I can't afford" all the time,

I can’t believe anyone could possibly justify living off taxpayers as being a positive lifestyle.

These programs are intended for people who are unable to earn a living and not those who have decided it is too hard or doesn’t make sense to attempt to make a living.

Would you actually find this positive if other groups justified nit working by essentially saying that it made no sense when they could live off the labor of other people.

I think people are missing the point as no one should grow up thinking they don’t have to figure out a way to support their family because other people will pay for it.

amother

Thu, Jan 04 2024, 2:15 pm

amother Celeste wrote:

Read some of the imamother threads about programs versus working. They weren't written by anyone learning in kollel

Yes, there are non kollel families who struggle with the “benefits cliff” but not all kollel families who leave kollel will fall into that category long term, just like most non kollel families don’t fall into that issue long term. So the net gain of those men leaving kollel would still be much much greater, meaning they’re just using excuses. Also that doesn’t address why they won’t just tell their wife to stop working and they get a job with the same salary their wife had. Or why they can’t take night courses while still in kollel, to strengthen their warning potential post kollel. The simple answer is, they don’t want to work and never in their life have they been told that it’s their responsibility to financially provide.

Chayalle

Thu, Jan 04 2024, 2:15 pm

amother OP wrote:

Sorry but those kollel men are likely just saying that as a copout. Of course it’s hard to go off programs but the whole point is that after a few years your income is hopefully high enough that it’s worth it. The problem is that many of those kollel men probably already got to the point where they literally won’t survive a few years of low/no income while they work to increase their wages, because they have a few kids and their basic life expenses are already too high.

But more likely, they are taking the easy way out.it’s legitimately hard hard hard to start working after years of kollel! So they make excuses. Never mind the fact that their wife is working and somehow they think it’s worth it for her but not for him. How about their wife becomes a SAHM and they get a job to replace their wife’s salary? They’ll still be on programs and their children will at least be taken care of. Or how about they just drop night seder and spend a few years take a night course so they can get a degree/certification they will allow them to start off with a good salary so they can leave kollel and it will be “worth it”?

Both of those are obvious choices that those kollel men have but no it’s much easier to say “working is a luxury I can’t afford (but my wife sure can)”.

I think most of what you are discussing here OP is a problem in a small segment of the Kollel population.

Alot of this has to do with long-term goals. If a young lady wants to marry someone who will learn in Kollel in the short-term (say, 2-3 years after marriage at most) and then support her, then she needs to look for someone who, as a young man, is already developing the skills toward that goal. If she marries someone who never took a summer job, never had to earn money, and has no plan, then the transition to such a world might be very difficult indeed once he gets past a certain age.

OTOH if a young lady wants to marry a long-term learner, then it makes sense for her to marry someone who has never ventured beyond the walls of the yeshiva, and is fully dedicated to learning. She will have to be ready to make do with less in the long run, and likely have a lucrative job that allows them to live with some measure of comfort/normalcy, but on a simple level, with a higher goal in mind to keep her going.

I think it's difficult for those who don't know their long-term goals at the outset, and they get mixed up in the process.

Beyond that, I see many young men who make the transition quite successfully. I have relatives who, several years after marriage, are earning lucrative salaries and supporting their families.

One other issue I'll mention is the incredible pressure these days to not just make it, but make it big. I know people whose husbands made the transition to the workplace, are supporting them, paying tuition, food on the table, decent enough standard of living, etc...but they didn't make it big. No gorgeous huge new construction home, hard to keep up with the Weiss's....and I feel for these young women who wanted to marry a Kollel guy who would learn those requisite years and then be that one who transitioned and then supported them on the level they were dreaming of.....and that didn't happen. Not every guy, Kollel or otherwise, is going to get to that level, and histapkut seems to be a hard lesson in this generation.

amother

Cappuccino

Thu, Jan 04 2024, 2:16 pm

It's true that this shouldn't be for everyone.
It's not true that it makes men lazy, unproductive or entitled.
Those are middos.
My husband is in kollel, we've been married 20 years. He takes his responsibility to support the family very seriously. I work full time, he learns very seriously, he takes care of the banking and financing and thanks me for everything I do.
This is a choice we made together, as long as we both want it, that's our choice. Men who have bad middos, will find a copout for their responsibilities even if they're working. Look at all the threads on here about the men who go out in the evening, or sleep through doing bedtime etc, they are working men. I haven't seen a thread like that about a kollel husband. When he's home, he's helping at home or learning.
The other point is that being in kollel isn't wasting time like people seem to think. He is providing spiritually for the family the best way he can.

Oh, and for the you neglect your kids people, I work from home and never sent a kid out before the age of 2. Hard work? yes. Worth it for me? yes. Suited to everyone, no.

amother

Thu, Jan 04 2024, 2:16 pm

mha3484 wrote:

Agreed 100% but I think what you don’t realize is that the mass pushing of the kollel system is precisely what has led to this lack of financial motivation and responsibility in our boys.

amother

Cerulean

Thu, Jan 04 2024, 2:17 pm

amother Hydrangea wrote:

The issue is also when the wife forgoes her right to be supported in order for her husband to learn...and the husband then takes advantage of that and doesn't support her, but also doesn't bother seriously learning in kollel.

It becomes taken for granted that the husband somehow doesn't owe the wife and children support, and that's a travesty and a direct violation of Jewish marriage.

Idk about anyone else, but I have a standard kesubah and we consider it my husband's responsibility to support the family financially. That means that if I would decide to be a SAHM, his job would be to figure out how to cover our expenses or lower them.
(we've been in kollel for 6 years)
also, I don't claim to know how Hashem calculates schar, but you do get credit for effort. If I think my husband is learning in kollel and really he's taking a nap under the coats in the coatroom, I assume I still get schar for my work. I would miss out on other benefits of Torah learning, like its effects on the person and home, but it's something

Unigala

Thu, Jan 04 2024, 2:18 pm

amother Lemonlime wrote:

see that would depend on your outlook. there are many communities that see torah learning as the highest value.. and they believe its worth living off programs to continue that.

amother

Stonewash

Thu, Jan 04 2024, 2:22 pm

No, I don't think so. I think a lot stems from young couples getting married before they are ready to support themselves fully and on the level that it seems to be expected to begin married life nowadays. Expectations are too high and everyone "deserves" to start off in a nicely furnished apartment, with expensive jewelry, nice wardrobe and other items that in the past were things that a couple would work towards and do on their own deeper into their marriage, not to mention paying rent and often college tuition if one of the couple is still in school. These expectations don't seem to be relegated only to the kollel set.

amother

Thu, Jan 04 2024, 2:23 pm

amother Cappuccino wrote:

It’s not just middos. Its values. Children who are raised with certain societal expectations will almost always naturally meet them. If from a young age boys are raised with the value that they should not feel responsibility to be a financial provider, and they system they are raised in strengthens that position by not giving them an education and by not allowing them to ever seriously think about a career path, and by raising their future wives to feel that being a good Jewish wife includes financial responsibility and they are pushed to work towards degrees/jobs that allow them that- then you will end up with exactly the scenario the yeshivish world finds itself in today.

I’m glad it’s working for you but too many people, men and women, are completely screwed over and stuck because if the kollel system.

amother

Wheat

Thu, Jan 04 2024, 2:25 pm

amother White wrote:

the issue is personal to your husband maybe

you cant necessrily blame the system. most men that I know (learning) are very grateful for their wives for being partners.
this is the message I was taught as a BY girl

I actually think this is another big issue. We have to stop promoting kollel life as the standard and something for everyone to strive for. Also to the women.

First, it pushes women to go into this life without fully understanding what it entails. This could lead to resentment or taking a man who should be in kollel out of kollel. Both not good for a marriage.

Second, it makes women feel too attached to their husband's learning. Many women feel less than if their husband's aren't learning enough or aren't in kollel. This is not healthy for her nor for her husband.

What needs to be taught to us BY girls is the importance of limud torah and having a beautiful home built on torah and mitzvos. And that's it.

amother

Cappuccino

Thu, Jan 04 2024, 2:28 pm

amother OP wrote:

Being lazy or entitled is not a value.
Societal expectations are a completely different piece. If boys are raised not to feel financial responsibility it's one thing. But neither my husband, brothers or sons are raised that way. They are raised to feel an immense responsibility to learn and a gratitude to their wives for allowing that. If where you live that has switched to being entitled and not feeling responsibility, you have a choice to make.

You seem to feel very resentful - maybe many people are screwed over, I don't know a lot of them, but just as many are not.