Is Kollel the root cause??

amother

Holly

Fri, Jan 05 2024, 9:02 am

amother Yellow wrote:

Ok. Fine. I'm just curious overall which group ends up with better seats upstairs. Not taking sides either way. Just late at night musings.

There wont be a better group. Eveyone will be judged on their personal circumstances and their personal choices. Some people will be praised for choosing kollel and for some it will be opposite. I.e. someone who chose kollel on the backs of his financially strapped parents, or continues on while his wife/family are deeply struggling or unhappy wont be looked at in the best light.

Same goes for choosing work or any other choice

Your post implies that there is only one ideal path and that is precisely what is wrong with our current system. There is no one ideal path for all. Every individual needs to choose a path based on his individual circumstances and do right by it. That's how we will be judged. Did you do the best you can with your personal circumstances. We are not going to be judged by whether you adapted the community's set path or not.

amother

Holly

Fri, Jan 05 2024, 9:15 am

amother Yellow wrote:

Who's willing to meet up after 120 and then we can decide once and for all who's side was better?

Me. I think some may be in for a very nice surprise. They may see that the guy who worked hard to support his family all the years, while making sure to be kovea itim, and support Torah learning in different ways will be considered in higher regard than a guy who started his life taking support from his financially strapped parents, having his wife carry the burden of parnossoh, and creating unnecessary family struggles.

It isn't black and white. It isnt kollel is the better choice no matter what. It isn't work is the better choice no matter what. It is dependent on your personal circumstances and thats how we will be judged. Did you push your choice through without due consideration to the consequences? Did you push your choice through without due consideration for those it affects around you? Were people hurt by your choices etc.

That's what the challenge of life is. Making the right choice in a particular time based on your own set of circumstances. There doesn't exist a single ideal path that is right for everyone, nor does the Torah doesnt promote a mass scale kollel system in golus. It is a societal construct.

amother

Mintcream

Fri, Jan 05 2024, 9:17 am

amother OP wrote:

You are greatly minimizing the effect of mothers not being present for their children, and greatly overestimating the role kollel plays in making a home warm and torahdik. Warmth and wheels how it are not exclusive to kollel families.

Calling the mass sending out of 6 week olds for hours a day a mere “downside” shows how blind you are to the harm.

As someone who was raised by a supposedly SAHM who was never home and present for me (she was out pursuing her own interests) I chose a Kollel lifestyle where I work for a few hours a day. I am very much present for my children for many more hours. It is quite possible to raise children well, even if I sent my baby out to a babysitter for a few hours when she was 2 months old (and co-slept with her and took care of her for all the remaining hours).

I actually found that newborns are better at the babysitters than toddlers - toddlers need their mother's time MORE. That's when I reduced my hours and lived on less, to give them more time with me.

I wonder if you'd have this arguement with a family who lives more comfortably on two salaries.

Chayalle

Fri, Jan 05 2024, 9:23 am

amother Holly wrote:

Point that I'm trying to make is to be forthcoming with our kids and provide options to them so they can choose the path in life that work for them.

Prepare them properly for life, let them have the full knowledge about the different paths in life, so they can make individual choices. The mass push of everyone into kollel lifestyle should be scaled back.

I'm actually fully supportive of the bolded.

As far as the mass push for Kollel, many have seen the benefits of short-term Kollel on a larger level than none at all. There is something special about starting your married life with the husband immersed in learning and connected to his yeshiva/Rabbeim. Many who do this find the transition to working after say, 1-3 years, not that daunting, with the benefits being life-long.

And yes, everyone needs to guide their children based on their children's own strengths (not the parents' ideals), and Chinuch is all about leading them to a path that works with who that child is and what they need.

Said as a long-term Kollel wife, mother of a short-term Kollel couple, and a daughter dating working/learning boys, and a teen with whom I have many conversations about the future and what might work for her...each child being individual.

amother

SandyBrown

Fri, Jan 05 2024, 9:26 am

Chayalle wrote:

ITA. Every time I read a post that you write, I wish I know you IRL!

peace2

Fri, Jan 05 2024, 9:28 am

We can talk and debate non stop about the system and whose fault it is. There's no such thing as a perfect system. Kollel isn't perfect (and I'm currently living it) but neither is the MO system or the JPF system or the chassidish system or the chareidi system... We live in an imperfect world.

You can come on this thread and kick and scream about how our yeshivos fail to prepare boys for the real world (what is the real world? Is it torah or secular?) and how they withhold financial literacy to propagate a system that will ultimately fail these boys (not even going to start on that one) OR you can take action.

You can teach your sons financial literacy. You can make them responsible for part of their own finances in high school, you can give them responsibility around the house, you can have expectations of them outside of their school and learning schedules. It's easier to sit back and blame the system, but when did that ever get us anywhere?

When this thread started, I thought it was thought-provoking and interesting. At this point, it's devolving into blaming and bashing because when you come out with your fingers pointing at a certain community for their faults and failures, they're going to get defensive. And especially here, when people are discarding the beauty and need for the torah learning that comes from our kollelim

amother

Obsidian

Fri, Jan 05 2024, 9:28 am

amother OP wrote:

Look at your own situation. You were a willing and supportive kolle wife who supported her husband financially for 15 years. Your husband is responsible and has a strong work ethic and he willingly went to work when the expenses became too much for you. According to many here, you are the ideal kollel couple. Yet even you are stuck with the serious issues that are plaguing the yeshivis world today- your husband is earning far below his potential due to him being handicapped by the kollel system, your children presumably were/are sent to babysitters at a young age, you will likely never be able to stop working and focus solely on your family. You presumably have no significant money saved up for weddings, retirement, big unexpected medical expenses.

Now imagine the same scenario but the wife was not as willing and the husband was not as responsible. And it makes it a million times worse.

Yes, my husband is earning very little right now (though he is currently in school and we are hoping that within the next year or so his income will significantly increase) however, we have always "somehow" had the money we needed to cover our bills. I can't explain it because it really makes no sense on paper! You're right that our savings are minimal but just as Hashem has provided for our needs until now I fully trust that He will continue to provide us with what we need!! With that being said, I am extremely frugal (think minimal disposable paper goods, all homemade food, used clothing whenever possible, etc.)

To answer your other "gripes", most of the SAH mothers I know STILL send their kids out young, STILL expect to have a lot of cleaning help, and STILL sound overwhelmed with life when I speak to them.

Chayalle

Fri, Jan 05 2024, 9:32 am

amother Holly wrote:

Oh I agree with this.
But I'll say a few things you might not like to hear. I say this based on what I hear from family and friends who married husbands who support them. Based on what I see going on.
The Kovea Itim is shvach (weak). As heard from the wives. At the end of the day they are tired. They would rather chill. The Chavrusah that was once set up didn't work out and they didn't bother to set up a new one, till their wife needles them that they are getting addicted to their phone while the wife is doing bedtime with the kids and exhausted, and if they would actually go out to a shiur or Chavrusah their wives would respect them more.
The husband who is actually Koveah Itim and support Torah is high in my regard, indeed. My biggest model of this is my own father, he should live to 120 and he's the one who inspired me to marry a Kollel husband (even though that was NOT his intent). Because men like him are few and far between. It's the truth.

(My father is the one who got up before work to do the Daf; and came home after, did hw/learning with my brothers, went out to a steady Chavrusah/shiur that he kept up for probably 40 years at least.....Sunday Chavrusah, same thing. That's why when he retired, he transitioned so smoothly to full time learning. Because it was like an old friend that was kept up steadily).

And that's why it has become somewhat black and white for some. Because the chances of your husband being that Koveah Itim might be upped if he starts out with Kollel at least for the short term.

Already as a teen I was seeing that men like my father do not automatically sprout up in this generation.

My DD's friends who dated working boys agreed that the real working Ben Torah is a rarity.

I agree with your last paragraph, with caveats.

amother

Obsidian

Fri, Jan 05 2024, 9:43 am

Chayalle wrote:

But she has those 15 years that her husband was in Kollel, and that is worth more to her than significant savings, etc...

Interestingly, I have siblings whose husbands went to work before they were 20, and they don't either.

(I actually do have retirement funds and an HSA, I did save up some for weddings, as do many Kollel wives I know.)

YES Chayelle. Exactly!! Those 15 years are something that no one can take away from me and no life's events will ever impact. People can lose their carefully accrued life's savings but I can never lose the schar of 15 years happily supporting my husband's learning.

(As an aside, I actually do have retirement savings as I am part of a pension system and also make small monthly contributions to a retirement savings account.)

amother

Eggshell

Fri, Jan 05 2024, 9:45 am

Chayalle wrote:

You're father sounds like a really special person!
I will disagree that a real working Ben Torah Is a rarity. I live in that world and know many who are like that. My owns husband, brothers/brother in laws to start. My husband learns in the community kollel at night (and gets up earlier than many kollel men for the 'working man's' daf) and it is full of young and older people like him learning after a full day of work. That being said, we are a bit older (mid to late 30's) so it is possible things are different in the younger, more, newly married generation.

ETA: we did not start out or grow up with kollel/learning, my husband was already in school/working when we got married, same for many of the people posted about above. He's also not a tremendous learner, yeshiva was a little bit of an experience for him to say the least but it's about prioritizing and making an effort for what's important.

amother

White

Fri, Jan 05 2024, 9:54 am

amother Obsidian wrote:

also agree... as a young kollel wife our lifestyle is really simple. despite one income we put away a considerable amount in savings for our future.
you cant necessarily say that starting out in kollel will automatically handicap you for life.

Chayalle

Fri, Jan 05 2024, 9:57 am

amother Eggshell wrote:

It's interesting, in DH's family where every one of his brothers started off in Kollel, but most (DH and one other brother are the exception, learning long term) transitioned to the work place. Every one of them is Kovea Itim - Chavrusahs, shiur, etc...
I'm from a JPF family, Kollel is not my Mesorah at all. Yet every one of my brothers went to Kollel, some long term, two are now in Chinuch, and one transitioned to the work place.
But those who married working boys (who were working already before marriage), I see that the learning has been a huge struggle for most.
So of those learning after a full day's work, many of them started out in learning.
I think the relationship with learning has to have been strong, to succeed in continuing it after a full days work. And I do think those who accomplish that these days, their Schar is very great indeed. I have a feeling we will see them in a special place after 120....and the women behind them.

amother

Buttercup

Fri, Jan 05 2024, 10:11 am

Chayala thank you for taking the time to always post on these threads and defend us!!

Personally, my dh was in kollel for approx 7 years. We were not supported, our parents are both poor. Dh switched to a higher paying job, and took on an early morning job, night job and shabbos job.

He spent his lunch break doing loads of laundry, grocery shopping, taking the babies for well visits, starting dinner prep etc. He spent Friday afternoons cleaning the apt (I actually did not clean the bathroom once during the kollel years!) He got up at night for babies so I would have energy during the day.

We lived very simply (and still do) and were happy. We didn't buy anything extra, got hand- me- down clothing, never ate out or bought takeout, no fancy vacation except some low key road trips etc.

We did fine financially during the kollel years and managed to save a lot. We didn't even stop kollel for finanical reasons. Unfortunately, after 7vyears dh's kollel closed down and there was no other kollel in our community that he felt was a good fit for him.

So he went to work and is now a working ben torag. He joined a night seder kollel. Whenever he has free time during the day, like when driving he listens to shiurim and does daf yomi with R' Eli. He still wears black and white and hat and jacket, even though it's very unusual to see a white shirt in his field

I really feel like those early years in kollel set the foundation for our home to be a strong torah'dig home.

amother

Electricblue

Fri, Jan 05 2024, 10:57 am

Chayalle wrote:

I'm not that poster but have to respond to this. I'll bite. My girls went to babysitters with at most 6 kids in the group, and for different hours (IOW not all were full-time). Yes, I paid well for smaller groups. BTW I recently met some of the mothers who sent to the same babysitter as my DD, who just got married. Let's see. One (mother) was in law school. One was two working parents. One Chassidish couple with a family business. Myself and one other were with husbands in Kollel (who has since transitioned to the working world).

As far as how Hashem created the world, he definitely created different men and women, with many different Kochos. Mine was definitely cut out for long-term learning. And Hashem definitely gave me a certain type of brain and abilities and sheifos for a reason. Our lifestyle and choices work for us.

As I said in my first post on this thread, this is about people making choices with long-term goals in sight. It's when these goals get lost that things get messed up.

I have to agree with this. Bashing Lakewood Kollel families for sending babies to babysitters is the most ignorant thing I have read on ima mother. 90% of the frum communities everywhere need 2 incomes to make it. The working moms that I know all send their kids to babysitters too. Kollel babies usually get picked up at 2:15 by the fathers while babies of working moms get picked up much later. I have many friends outside of Lakewood who work full time and have non-jewish nannies watching their baby 9-5 plus their other kids when they come home from school. Which is better? To have your baby at a frum small babysitting group being watched by a mommy until 2:15 and then brought home by their father or having a non jewish nanny watching your baby all day, picking up your other kids, etc?

amother

Eggplant

Fri, Jan 05 2024, 11:43 am

Here's my fears when I think of my husband leaving kollel.
I'll never see him anymore. We're a real team now with the housework and childcare etc. I do sometimes wish that the burden of parnassah wasnt on me but then all the housework would be on me and I certainly dont want that! I'm good at my job but terrible at running the house. The kids would also hardly get to see him. Every minute that he wasn't working would be in the bais medrash and I wouldn't see him motzai shabbos or even for a minute on sunday or early mornings or evenings. And he's able to be so relaxed and present now without any work pressures and what would I do if we were both anxious pressure cookers? Also, I'm pretty sure that our parnassah has real bracha now because of his learning. Will we gain anything financially from him leaving kollel? We're not on any government programs so I'm not afraid of that but I think my job is a miracle.