Must I pay for a broken window

amother

Cappuccino

Wed, Feb 14 2024, 9:48 am

watergirl wrote:

When my daughter was around 8, she was playing in front of my apartment with a friend on shabbos and the friend randomly picked up a rock and threw it and it went right into my minivan window. My husband and her father spoke and decided to ask a rav together who should pay. The father went to his rav on his own, no idea what he said, but his rav said as she is under 12, they have no obligation to pay for the window and refused to pay or even pay half. As the child was pretty unpredictable, we never had her back again.

There is an entire masechta on damages for a reason, it's not so simple as to manners and etiquette. This is really a shailah as to who is responsible and who should pay.

How is this similar to the op's story? The op's child caused damage during the normal course of a game that was allowed by the homeowner. You're describing a kid throwing a rock through your are window.

The first is damage that occurred during normal behavior and the latter is damage that occurred during abnormal behavior.

amother

Offwhite

Wed, Feb 14 2024, 9:53 am

watergirl wrote:

I agree with this completely.

I'd also add - the best chinuch opportunity here is to make this into a lesson on the right time and the right place for everything. Backyards are not for playing baseball, they are for playing catch. Baseball fields are the place to hit balls with bats, and the reason is so windows are not broken.

The child was not playing by himself. From my understanding there was a whole group of boys.
Adults supervising should have let them know to stop playing If they were not ok with it.
It didn't happen in Op's backyard.
I think it's very nice to offer to pay. they do have a broken window, and maybe no money to replace it so they had to accept.
It could have been any other boys responsible as well.

amother

Garnet

Wed, Feb 14 2024, 9:54 am

watergirl wrote:

OP never said she would back out. She was asking for thoughts - I think.

The thread title asks "Must I pay". It sounds like she's wondering if she has to pay, after offering to pay and them accepting.

amother

Mintcream

Wed, Feb 14 2024, 9:54 am

amother NeonGreen wrote:

I would think so! If someone breaks a window they should pay.

A neighbor was playing next door and hit a ball that broke our window. Of course we accepted the payment.

(I hate when boys play next door bec I don’t know if they’ll all be as honest as that boy was and admit it was them… then I remind myself Hashem is in charge)

It’s very different because the boys were playing in one of the kids own backyard. By letting the boys play there, the parents were taking a (normal) risk.

OP I understand why you’re taken aback. But I could see a few reasons why they’d accept (they’re strapped for cash, they’ve paid in a similar situation in the past, they didn’t think through it too much, etc.) Personally I’d be happier for them to accept because I wouldn’t want them to resent my kid coming over. Either way, make sure your kid knows not to play ball there again.

amother

Azure

Wed, Feb 14 2024, 9:55 am

When we first got married, we were the ones whose item was broken by a child. We did nothing wrong or negligent. The kid's mom didn't supervise him (dad wasn't there) and he went over and broke our item. We also weren't even in our own apartment...

We asked a shaila because we were very upset. It was brand new, we couldn't afford to replace it, it was a wedding gift.... the Rav asked us to let it go as he was a minor.

watergirl

Wed, Feb 14 2024, 9:57 am

amother Cappuccino wrote:

The thing that is similar is the age of the child and the halacha involved. And the point is the same - a shailah should be asked if the party who broke the window is unsure.

watergirl

Wed, Feb 14 2024, 9:58 am

amother Garnet wrote:

The thread title asks "Must I pay". It sounds like she's wondering if she has to pay, after offering to pay and them accepting.

I want to believe the best in OP and assume that she is not backing out, but she is asking the ladies here for their thoughts on the matter.

amother

Cappuccino

Wed, Feb 14 2024, 10:06 am

Bnei Berak 10 wrote:

OP, you say it's happened I the past. Did someone damage your things our your son damaged to someone else?

Wouldn't this depend on the circumstances?

A. I agree to allow a football game in my yard. A kid throws the ball, hits by window and breaks it. I knew the risk of allowing this type of game and so there's room to say I took the chance and the kid's parents aren't responsible.

B. I don't allow ballgames in my yard and I always tell the kids to go to the park instead. When I'm not home they take advantage and play ball in my yard and damage something. I never gave them permission and therefore they are responsible.

amother

Mistyrose

Wed, Feb 14 2024, 10:07 am

It's pretty clear that we need to differentiate between intentional and unintentional. Funnily enough in all the situations where it was intentional those parents didn't offer! Well maybe it's no surprise that their kids don't know how to behave. But I do agree it's always good to offer to pay. We might assume that even though it's understood that when you let kids play near your house they may break a window, lose a ball, or pop a ball, it's often certain families that host often, (the nice neighbors with the big yard) and since they are likely going to have several broken windows or other damages through the year it makes sense they should accept your offer.

amother

NeonPurple

Wed, Feb 14 2024, 10:12 am

Op not sure why you offered before asking a rav and deciding that you’re ok paying. They naught just think you want to pay and are happy to accept.

I agree with those that say that the supervising parent should take some if not all responsibility so if it was halachicly not required for me to pay I wouldn’t. Or I would offer to split.

If I give the kids permanent markers I can’t expect you to pay to repaint, same here- they allowed the kids to play baseball in the backyard. Your kid didn’t do anything maliciously wrong.

Bnei Berak 10

Wed, Feb 14 2024, 10:13 am

amother Cappuccino wrote:

I want to hear from OP what she means with "it has happened in the past"

amother

Forsythia

Wed, Feb 14 2024, 10:26 am

amother Forestgreen wrote:

She asked if she must pay.
She offered and they accepted- so yes, she must.

Its very clear what she meant. She's obviously not backing out now that she offered. She is asking if she was obligated to do what she did by offering money.

watergirl

Wed, Feb 14 2024, 10:39 am

amother Forsythia wrote:

Its very clear what she meant. She's obviously not backing out now that she offered. She is asking if she was obligated to do what she did by offering money.

I agree with you. It may have not been the best way to word a thread subject but she did not otherwise indicate that she is thinking to back out. She just expressed shock that the parents took her up on her offer and is asking for other opinions on the matter.

amother

Snapdragon

Wed, Feb 14 2024, 4:29 pm

amother Floralwhite wrote:

My intuitive reaction--which may be totally off halachically--is that if the host parents knew about and allowed the baseball game, then they accepted the risk of normal baseball game damages, which would include breakage from a hit ball.

Such risk would not include things like a kid cutting up their garden hose or throwing a baseball purposely through a car window. But it would include anything that happens as a result of normal good-faith baseball play, such as hitting and fielding.

That being said, since you offered, it seems very odd to back out.

Edit: in general, I would not accept payment from anyone for a kid breaking something accidentally if the kid was doing normal things in a normal way. I would only consider accepting payment if there was some kind of misbehavior or disobedience involved.

This was my thought exactly. If my neighbors play next door or they deliberately throw a ball on my window then of course it's on them. However if I allow my kid to play ball with a friend in my yard I should accept responsibility of any unintended damage. Otherwise I shouldn't allow ball playing in the yard.

I don't think I'd be happy if my neighbor asks me to pay for damages as a result of an activity she gave my child permission to engage in at her property.

amother

Papayawhip

Wed, Feb 14 2024, 4:59 pm

amother NeonGreen wrote:

Right, but he was playing ball together with their own son. I really think it's different.

amother

Wed, Feb 14 2024, 5:56 pm

Bnei Berak 10 wrote:

OP, you say it's happened I the past. Did someone damage your things our your son damaged to someone else?

It once happened in my house when my son and a group of his friends were playing ball. One of the boys broke my window accidentally. I never mentioned it to his parents, and they never offered to pay, even though I know for certainty that the boy told his parents what had happened.