S/o coupons/middle class

amother

↑ Bone ↓

Wed, Apr 03 2024, 12:14 pm

amother Linen wrote:

Id like to hope that year was an anamoly.

I want to point out. You keep on mentioning the dobors. But heres thing. If a campaign goes public, every single person who donates a quarter becomes a donor and has to right be informed.
If a fundraiser doesnt specify "klai kodesh" "widows" "divorcees" then to start making cheshbonos even if the big donors say so is wrong.

If an organization distributes $500,000 strictly on a need basis, and an additional $750,000 restricted to klei kodesh, while raising $350,000 from their public general campaign and $900,000 from large donors earmarking most of their donation for klei kodesh, that is absolutely justified use of the funds and is not deceptive in any way.

amother

Lime ↓

Wed, Apr 03 2024, 12:17 pm

I hope this doesn’t derail the thread, and I know many will not agree.
But sometimes I feel the same about organizations that help Kallahs.. I completely understand the need for these organizations to help Kallahs who cannot afford basics for their new married life, and they should absolutely get what they need.
But sometimes I wonder if what they give Kallahs up the standards as well.
I didn’t get married with a set of China, a ton of small appliances microwaves etc, numerous sets of towels etc etc
It’s like saying this is what you need to be happy when your setting up a home
And it’s not true, you can be happy with the basics and the rest of it, you pay for yourself, use your gift money or get second hand, like I and many of my friends had to do, Because we didn’t qualify for the organizations, but our parents couldn’t afford to get us everything that our rich friends were getting.
But perhaps I’m wrong here, and the standard has been raised and organizations need to help people meet that standard…
I don’t know..

amother

↑ Linen ↓

Wed, Apr 03 2024, 12:19 pm

amother Bone wrote:

I disagree.
They should be making it clear in the ad campaign.
And making the information available to those small donors who want to know the breakdown.

We learn from Moshe in Parshas Pekudei the importance of specifying and making it clear to those who give, the exact breakdown of community funds.

It needs to be public and open to be seen

amother

↑ Bone ↓

Wed, Apr 03 2024, 12:26 pm

amother Linen wrote:

In the example above every penny of the public donations is being distributed strictly on a need basis. Why is it the organizations obligation to inform the public about a sponsored, targeted, private campaign simply because it is being executed at the same time as the public distribution?

bsy ↓

Wed, Apr 03 2024, 12:26 pm

I think the problem with these gift cards are the standards they set for everyone else. It means every single kid with a father in kollel etc is getting brand new shoes from the latest season. If they wouldn't get the cards and would be buying the shoes themselves, many many people would either buy cheaper shoes (gasp-not from the Jewish stores) or buy sale shoes when needed. I say this as someone who gets the cards from a kollel. The cards are not to cheaper stores like tottini or kidichic. It's for regular stores with very expensive products that I would never ever in a million years pay full price for. I have the money to spend and I try to stretch it as far as I can, like buying tzitzis and things that never go on sale. And if I can find cheaper shoes on sale, I get those and put them away for the future. But to up the standards by outfitting the "poor" with the most expensive is not necessarily the answer.

Last edited by bsy on Wed, Apr 03 2024, 12:26 pm; edited 1 time in total

amother

↑ Dodgerblue

Wed, Apr 03 2024, 12:26 pm

amother Lime wrote:

Unfortunately you are right. I've gotten help before Yom tov when I needed it. Although I would have been perfectly happy to shop in cheaper stores the coupons that were given were in jewish stores that were very expensive. I do think that stores sold it to tzedaka organizations at a discount.
but it does raise the standards because now my child got $150 dress and she would have been happy with a $75 one! There are no jewish stores where I live that sell $75 dresses.
Not everything can be fixed!

amother

Chambray

Wed, Apr 03 2024, 12:27 pm

amother Lime wrote:

a million percent.
along the same theme.. takana halls (I guess this is more specific to lakewood) are probably the biggest mistake too.
EVERYONE deserves the same exact 300+ person high end wedding...

my cousins whos parents are klei kodesh got makeup done by high end people, chosson got custom suit and borsalino hat.. etc furtiture, home goods, sheva brachos clothes, lingerie (!) all sponsored..

its a bit wild tbh.

amother

Skyblue

Wed, Apr 03 2024, 12:31 pm

Finances are a really tough topic for most yidden, especially Yom tov time. There are different organizations that donate towards set pollutions but can it be this,tremendous separation between working class and "klie kodesh" is part of the (old litvish) lakewood system.?Most other communities have support systems for working members of society too. Most people I know recieving "help " now for Yom tov including financial, clothing, shoes, or food are working members of society- not specifically "klie kodesh". Some people will recieve specific help from an organization or mosad depending on their affiliation, and many people can't get their act together to apply for assistance in a punctual many, but it is available.
Is lakewood different?

amother

Strawberry

Wed, Apr 03 2024, 12:32 pm

amother Lime wrote:

Agreed. I was recently approached several times by an aggressive campaigner for an organization that helps singles. This is not my shtick and I give all of my maasser to causes I'm personally passionate about. After agreeing to give what I can, I found out that my name was put on this person's list to push for a 10k+ donation. How in the world did they decide that?! Ten thousand dollars? I'm not a Herzog or Kedem. The expectation was unreal and it completely turned me off. Same with funds for weddings (I paid for my own and went without what we couldn't afford). I don't get all the campaigns for extras when so many people don't have basics. No child should miss lunch or school because it's parents can't pay. That's so much more important than giving for weddings and supporting singles (or whatever that particular cause is), IMO. No real comment on the middle class issue other than to say I've been there and it's hard. Too rich for benefits, too poor to pay for them on your own. It's a terrible position to be in.

amother

↑ Lime ↓

Wed, Apr 03 2024, 12:33 pm

I still remember a fiend whose husband was in Kollel whose parents supported them very comfortably telling me about the gift cards she got to a very high end shoe store, and how she really doesn’t even need it but she’ll use it anyways… I was so upset, we were really struggling at the time, husband was just starting in the workforce, we had no parental help, I would have greatly appreciated those gift cards. Something really isn’t right here…

amother

↑ Stonewash ↓

Wed, Apr 03 2024, 12:38 pm

amother Chambray wrote:

I don't understand. aren't takanah halls available to everybody and don't you still have to pay just less and the whole thing is that it's not a high end wedding?

amother

Lilac

Wed, Apr 03 2024, 12:39 pm

The fact is that someone who makes just a bit more than what is considered to be the poverty line doesn’t get any assistance. So where someone who makes a little bit less than them has help paying for groceries, housing, insurance (possibly even completely free)… and more, the people who are not eligible by a little bit- are in the middle class- have to pay for all that themselves. Which leads them to often be left with less money than the people who are considered ‘poor’ and need help. So when it comes to organizations that help out and all the money goes to the same people who are getting all the government programs, especially during yom tov season, it can be very frustrating. Many families with government assistance and help from all these organizations, get to live on a higher standard, spend more on clothes….

mummiedearest

Wed, Apr 03 2024, 12:45 pm

When I was a kid, rich kids had rich kid things. I was from a struggling family. All the kids expected things accordingly. With my own children, I have struggled to teach them the value of money. Everyone in their classes since preschool has had designer shoes, American girl dolls, etc. I spent a lot of time talking to my small children about how spending that much on one item is not in our family’s value system. Everyone else has one. But it’s not something I’m willing to provide. But since today’s prevailing parenting attitude is that children should never feel left out, the prevalence of expensive everything in my children’s social circles has made my job a lot harder. I avoid giving tzedaka to orgs that provide families with vouchers for over $100 per kid for shoes for pesach, for example. While I acknowledge that there are cases in which this is appropriate to give, I don’t think that it’s appropriate across the board. To be fair, I’m not asking for vouchers. I am not seeing this through the lens of fair/unfair or jealousy. I do see much of the situation as detrimental to society and a source of a massive growth in materialism, which has certainly not served our children well. I think we need to rethink the values we are passing on to our children.

↑ mig100 ↓

Wed, Apr 03 2024, 12:47 pm

mummiedearest wrote:

This is well said.

I don't think I am a jealous person.

I think we do have to realize we have problems in society that need to be addressed.

amother

Goldenrod

Wed, Apr 03 2024, 12:53 pm

amother Forsythia wrote:

I will also add that the “handouts” up the standards.

When it was only the rich whose kids had high end new shoes for YT or school, it was ok, they are rich, and fine they have. But now it is both ends, and basically everyone but my kids and my kids feel bad/are the nebby ones which put undo social pressure on them and undo financial pressure on me.
The “poor” are the ones who have upped the standards. It used to be only the rich and they were privileged and that was OK. They had the fancy bar mitzvah/wedding-now it is everyone but my kid and it puts significant pressure on me. How is that fair?

You hit the nail on the head.
I was going to say the same thing but you said it well so I’ll just quote you.
When I was a kid the rich kids has nicer things and that was that. Everyone knew they were more affluent and had a bit nicer stuff that the rest of us didn’t and that was it.
Now both ends have the nice stuff leaving the kids in the middle grasping to look normal like everyone else and not like they shopped at Burlington.

↑ mig100

Wed, Apr 03 2024, 1:02 pm

amother Goldenrod wrote:

I agree. its easy to overlook the rich. We can easily explain to our kids that not everyone can afford what Mr millionaire has and who needs it anyways.

How do you explain that to your kids when a very large percentage of the population has this "things"

↑ BusyBoys

Wed, Apr 03 2024, 1:10 pm

TravelHearter wrote:

@BusyBoys- very true. But then look at it as an emotional process, where the end goal is to let it go (mentally).
These threads aren’t about OPs and posters trying to move on. They just go in circles saying the same negative pints (that might be true) over and over. I hope I’m not being too harsh, I’m just trying to say my point more clearly.

I hear you.

It’s definitely true that some ppl aren’t ready to move on.
I know for myself- that if I get into negative mindset I can spin very fast.
Thing is, and I can only work on myself and can’t change others.

So I try and move past posts like these where ppl are venting and not ready or willing to see past it.

Coming from middle class perspective bh

amother

Rose ↓

Wed, Apr 03 2024, 1:14 pm

mig100 wrote:

They are getting tzedakah. We can BH manage on our own so we only buy what we actually need. They get tzedakah so they don't get to choose.

amother

IndianRed

Wed, Apr 03 2024, 1:18 pm

amother Ultramarine wrote:

It's not jealousy. It's sheer frustration at a twisted system.
Those that don't understand it, say that it's jealousy. But it isn't.
The middle class are struggling more than anyone else. It is hard to see the same people getting all handouts & help, when nothing is available to the middle class.
It's a twisted system where the "poor" live on higher standards.
We are allowed to point out problems within our systems, it's not jealousy.

This but also we're the ones funding all the "freebies" because nothing is ever free

amother

↑ Linen ↓

Wed, Apr 03 2024, 1:25 pm

amother Rose wrote:

They are getting tzedakah. We can BH manage on our own so we only buy what we actually need. They get tzedakah so they don't get to choose.

That only works if you can afford needs.

I will not tell my child that we buy what we need when they're asking for tights/socks with no holes.
Im choosing to wait until after Pesach because I need to use my money and credit card limit for matza and chicken.

But I very strongly dont believe in telling children that we have enough for our needs when theyre socks have holes.
It gives them the impression that I dont care for their needs.