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singleagain
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 Mon, Apr 22 2024, 4:54 pm
my thoughts as a 'tagalong'
first of all... as with most double takes, communication and expressing feelings before the resentment hits is the main lesson to learn.
I am a just turned 38 year old living with my parents. every year since my parents were married with the expectation of the year I was born (sorry mom) my mom has made pesach. and even the year I was born, she had everything ready, except the oven. I was born, she came home finished the oven and then said, 'no I can't lets go to a relative' and for over 30 of the years since we lived in a house not an apartment, we always hosted my moms parents. except one year when my mom had surgery right before pesach.
so, first, let me express, that I totally understand (obviously, not 100% as I have never done it alone) but I do have some understanding of what it means to host pesach. 2nd hand, sure, but I see my mom planning. all of my other siblings are out of the house at this point. so it's seeing if they are coming. since I have one sib in Israel, I think she only came in for pesach once. my two other sibs, have mostly come home. granted. we aren't a large family with many in-laws and grandkids... but I still understand finding out if they are coming, figuring out the rooms, {we're lucky everyone fits in their old rooms + one guest room} etc all that entails.
then my mom goes through her recipes and decides what to make menu wise, she writes it up and my dad who is retired usually does the shopping based on what my mom wants to cook. my mom still works full time and so do I. the cleaning happened in bits and pieces, and mostly by my dad who as I said is retired. although there was one sunday everyone living in the house, me my mom and my dad all did a bunch together.
within the last year my job moved and now my drive is 3 times as long, so I have to get up earlier to leave the house and I often get home at or after 7 pm. just the drive is exhausting, let alone the rest of the mental energy my job takes. plus because my day is suddenly 3 hours longer, and less flexible that it used to be, I don't even have time to see friends, or even think about dating ... [I mean that;s not 100% true, bc if it were important I'd make the time, blah blah blah I know all that, for right now, it's on my back burner]
and I was also maybe spoiled a bit, by always having the pre pesach job of taking savta out of the house so my mom could get other stuff done. [long story, trust me it was necessary] -- also, my mom is amazing and if I had the opportunity to go hang with a friend, she would tell me to do it, even at the expense of helping her in the kitchen or whatever.
it's awkward though, bc I am an adult, but I am living at home, and with my parents. there was a lot of growing pains over the years. the main one was them trusting me to be in charge of my own schedule. for instance, my father doesn't wake me up, unless I ask him to help me. I come home when I come home... but I do share my location with my parents, so they can see where I am. for instance, when it's 9 pm and I haven't contacted them, they can look at the map and see, 'oh, look, she's still at work, or driving home. or stopped at the store' -- and truth is, since I work in a grocery, I will, usually on Thursday before I leave, text or call and make sure we don't need anything for shabbat. and if we do, I buy it. sometimes, with their card on file, sometimes, with mine. I don't keep track.
but, whatever happens for my folks, if they have shabbat guests or are shabbat guests, I'm automatically included in their plans. they started making plans for aliyah, and they right away say "you could come with us" [that is a whole different topic, but still.. it's like they can't even decide on things like that without factoring me into it.] and sure I could go with them, but does that mean actually with them, and they make sure to get at least a 2 bedroom place, or would I find my own.. I don't know bc right now, that isn't exactly on my mind... I have just trying to make it through this last month at work. bc omg pesach in the kitchen was absolutely insane! [I bookkeep for the kitchen of my grocery... catering and stuff]
I understand that I'm not part of my parents' marriage but I'm still family, it's just that it can feel like an afterthought. I'm a slightly picky eater, and bc of my commute, I often get home after my folks have already had dinner. in fact, I'd say 3/4 days they are even already in bed. so it's can be a bit lonely... there are weeks I don't see my mom from Sunday night till Friday morning, bc I am out of the house at the same times or longer that she is. then on shabbat one or both of us are sleepy... it's a weird life.
what was my point.... the point was that as a tagalong... it's a really hard place to be. and also, when you are a busy single, even though you are living at home, you appreciate that and when the plans are yanked out from under your feet.. its frustrating. especially, if you aren't a fan of the alternative. which in this story the sisters were not. and mostly likely, the main reason they were not, it sounded once again like lack of communication. truth is 21, and 23 are still very young and you might still be figuring out the dynamics of being adults living at home.
also, if you notice in the article, the one sister says "I just want to put my greasy third day yom tov hair in a ponytail and shlump around" -- I mean there are just some things you cannot do at when you aren't home. and if you are already exhausted and just don't want to deal. and now you have to, and no one even asked, they just expected that you would come and do it... yeah.. that's painful. it almost feels like you have no autonomy and are a child again, even though you aren't.
not to mention, for the sister flying in, one of the things she wanted was to be in her hometown, and able to also go visit her inlawas and her friends, and now her plans can no longer include her in laws and friends. the only reason she was sleeping at her parents was bc they had a bigger space then the inlaws. how do you think those poor in laws feel that their son and dil and grandkids are now suddenly no longer going to be over on yom tov?
plus it sounds like at the brother's house there is only one person with a seder plate leading. she specifically mentions that her husband loves to make his own seder, and that may have been possible at her parents. but it seems like it won't be possible at her brother.
[side note, one year, we had a 4 ring seder at my house, bc it was my father. sabba, and two uncles. each had their own seder plate and each made their own kiddush and everything, thankfully all of maggid was shared among all the cousins, but yeah, it was crazy and longer]
also the married sister who didn't come wasn't helpful either... first she totally invalidated the Israeli sister and second, she was part of the problem with meddling and not communicating. and sometimes you aren't looking for the pampering and catering, but you want the homey things you grew up with.
plus the brother is a bit of a steamroller.
just deciding on a random shabbat, "you and the girls will come to me" again. not caring if the girls want to... then just taking the bills from their father to pay them... I mean, yes it's very nice and kavodick and whatever, but sometimes, these things are sensitive, what if the father didn't want to share the bills with the son? shouldn't he have a right to privacy. and then listening to his mom's complaints, there wasn't any really listening, brother went right into problem solving mode... and problem solving is great, if you make sure the solution works for the person to whom the problem belongs, and not just the easiest way that you think it will be solved.
then the other married sister goes and basically gives the brother the opportunity to steamroll again. I mean the married sister said to her brother "I was just wondering if we can somehow change the plans" but these were not your plans in the first place. you ms married sister were not part of these pesach plans you should not be changing them.
of course the Israeli & single sisters were comparing. people who were not originally part of their pesach plans (other married sister and brother) took it upon themselves to completely change it without speaking to them. there were 6 people in the original pesach plans,[plus the in laws that are now affected] and brother only spoke to 2 of them [parents] about changing the plans and that was after the other married sister called him.
I bet you the brother was a bit of a steamroller growing up as well and there is past resentment. he just seems to have that personality from the way it describes him in business to the way he hears a complaint from his mother and it's just "you come to me for shabbat? no are you sure? okay then I'll cater it?" honestly. another word for steamroller is bully.
the way to handle this, would have been to pick up the phone and call the sister, 'ma's not having an easy time of it' even before pesach, if you're worried about your parents if that's physically or mentally or emotionally, you call your siblings and tell them. 'hey I'm worried about ma and pa, they seem to really be struggling. I was visiting the other day and saw xyz' 'dad saw the doctor and the doctor said no abc' you don't wait until the last minute and then steamroll everyone into doing what you think is right.
just bc you think it's right or should be appreciated doesn't mean everyone else does. and for goodness sake, talk to everyone your decision will affect. don't just talk to some of them. as a 'taggalong' it's the feeling of being left out of the decision that hurts the most.
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daagahminayin
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Mon, Apr 22 2024, 5:22 pm
| singleagain wrote: | my thoughts as a 'tagalong'
first of all... as with most double takes, communication and expressing feelings before the resentment hits is the main lesson to learn.
I am a just turned 38 year old living with my parents. every year since my parents were married with the expectation of the year I was born (sorry mom) my mom has made pesach. and even the year I was born, she had everything ready, except the oven. I was born, she came home finished the oven and then said, 'no I can't lets go to a relative' and for over 30 of the years since we lived in a house not an apartment, we always hosted my moms parents. except one year when my mom had surgery right before pesach.
so, first, let me express, that I totally understand (obviously, not 100% as I have never done it alone) but I do have some understanding of what it means to host pesach. 2nd hand, sure, but I see my mom planning. all of my other siblings are out of the house at this point. so it's seeing if they are coming. since I have one sib in Israel, I think she only came in for pesach once. my two other sibs, have mostly come home. granted. we aren't a large family with many in-laws and grandkids... but I still understand finding out if they are coming, figuring out the rooms, {we're lucky everyone fits in their old rooms + one guest room} etc all that entails.
then my mom goes through her recipes and decides what to make menu wise, she writes it up and my dad who is retired usually does the shopping based on what my mom wants to cook. my mom still works full time and so do I. the cleaning happened in bits and pieces, and mostly by my dad who as I said is retired. although there was one sunday everyone living in the house, me my mom and my dad all did a bunch together.
within the last year my job moved and now my drive is 3 times as long, so I have to get up earlier to leave the house and I often get home at or after 7 pm. just the drive is exhausting, let alone the rest of the mental energy my job takes. plus because my day is suddenly 3 hours longer, and less flexible that it used to be, I don't even have time to see friends, or even think about dating ... [I mean that;s not 100% true, bc if it were important I'd make the time, blah blah blah I know all that, for right now, it's on my back burner]
and I was also maybe spoiled a bit, by always having the pre pesach job of taking savta out of the house so my mom could get other stuff done. [long story, trust me it was necessary] -- also, my mom is amazing and if I had the opportunity to go hang with a friend, she would tell me to do it, even at the expense of helping her in the kitchen or whatever.
it's awkward though, bc I am an adult, but I am living at home, and with my parents. there was a lot of growing pains over the years. the main one was them trusting me to be in charge of my own schedule. for instance, my father doesn't wake me up, unless I ask him to help me. I come home when I come home... but I do share my location with my parents, so they can see where I am. for instance, when it's 9 pm and I haven't contacted them, they can look at the map and see, 'oh, look, she's still at work, or driving home. or stopped at the store' -- and truth is, since I work in a grocery, I will, usually on Thursday before I leave, text or call and make sure we don't need anything for shabbat. and if we do, I buy it. sometimes, with their card on file, sometimes, with mine. I don't keep track.
but, whatever happens for my folks, if they have shabbat guests or are shabbat guests, I'm automatically included in their plans. they started making plans for aliyah, and they right away say "you could come with us" [that is a whole different topic, but still.. it's like they can't even decide on things like that without factoring me into it.] and sure I could go with them, but does that mean actually with them, and they make sure to get at least a 2 bedroom place, or would I find my own.. I don't know bc right now, that isn't exactly on my mind... I have just trying to make it through this last month at work. bc omg pesach in the kitchen was absolutely insane! [I bookkeep for the kitchen of my grocery... catering and stuff]
I understand that I'm not part of my parents' marriage but I'm still family, it's just that it can feel like an afterthought. I'm a slightly picky eater, and bc of my commute, I often get home after my folks have already had dinner. in fact, I'd say 3/4 days they are even already in bed. so it's can be a bit lonely... there are weeks I don't see my mom from Sunday night till Friday morning, bc I am out of the house at the same times or longer that she is. then on shabbat one or both of us are sleepy... it's a weird life.
what was my point.... the point was that as a tagalong... it's a really hard place to be. and also, when you are a busy single, even though you are living at home, you appreciate that and when the plans are yanked out from under your feet.. its frustrating. especially, if you aren't a fan of the alternative. which in this story the sisters were not. and mostly likely, the main reason they were not, it sounded once again like lack of communication. truth is 21, and 23 are still very young and you might still be figuring out the dynamics of being adults living at home.
also, if you notice in the article, the one sister says "I just want to put my greasy third day yom tov hair in a ponytail and shlump around" -- I mean there are just some things you cannot do at when you aren't home. and if you are already exhausted and just don't want to deal. and now you have to, and no one even asked, they just expected that you would come and do it... yeah.. that's painful. it almost feels like you have no autonomy and are a child again, even though you aren't.
not to mention, for the sister flying in, one of the things she wanted was to be in her hometown, and able to also go visit her inlawas and her friends, and now her plans can no longer include her in laws and friends. the only reason she was sleeping at her parents was bc they had a bigger space then the inlaws. how do you think those poor in laws feel that their son and dil and grandkids are now suddenly no longer going to be over on yom tov?
plus it sounds like at the brother's house there is only one person with a seder plate leading. she specifically mentions that her husband loves to make his own seder, and that may have been possible at her parents. but it seems like it won't be possible at her brother.
[side note, one year, we had a 4 ring seder at my house, bc it was my father. sabba, and two uncles. each had their own seder plate and each made their own kiddush and everything, thankfully all of maggid was shared among all the cousins, but yeah, it was crazy and longer]
also the married sister who didn't come wasn't helpful either... first she totally invalidated the Israeli sister and second, she was part of the problem with meddling and not communicating. and sometimes you aren't looking for the pampering and catering, but you want the homey things you grew up with.
plus the brother is a bit of a steamroller.
just deciding on a random shabbat, "you and the girls will come to me" again. not caring if the girls want to... then just taking the bills from their father to pay them... I mean, yes it's very nice and kavodick and whatever, but sometimes, these things are sensitive, what if the father didn't want to share the bills with the son? shouldn't he have a right to privacy. and then listening to his mom's complaints, there wasn't any really listening, brother went right into problem solving mode... and problem solving is great, if you make sure the solution works for the person to whom the problem belongs, and not just the easiest way that you think it will be solved.
then the other married sister goes and basically gives the brother the opportunity to steamroll again. I mean the married sister said to her brother "I was just wondering if we can somehow change the plans" but these were not your plans in the first place. you ms married sister were not part of these pesach plans you should not be changing them.
of course the Israeli & single sisters were comparing. people who were not originally part of their pesach plans (other married sister and brother) took it upon themselves to completely change it without speaking to them. there were 6 people in the original pesach plans,[plus the in laws that are now affected] and brother only spoke to 2 of them [parents] about changing the plans and that was after the other married sister called him.
I bet you the brother was a bit of a steamroller growing up as well and there is past resentment. he just seems to have that personality from the way it describes him in business to the way he hears a complaint from his mother and it's just "you come to me for shabbat? no are you sure? okay then I'll cater it?" honestly. another word for steamroller is bully.
the way to handle this, would have been to pick up the phone and call the sister, 'ma's not having an easy time of it' even before pesach, if you're worried about your parents if that's physically or mentally or emotionally, you call your siblings and tell them. 'hey I'm worried about ma and pa, they seem to really be struggling. I was visiting the other day and saw xyz' 'dad saw the doctor and the doctor said no abc' you don't wait until the last minute and then steamroll everyone into doing what you think is right.
just bc you think it's right or should be appreciated doesn't mean everyone else does. and for goodness sake, talk to everyone your decision will affect. don't just talk to some of them. as a 'taggalong' it's the feeling of being left out of the decision that hurts the most. |
I really enjoyed reading your thoughts and description of how your family does Pesach 
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singleagain
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Mon, Apr 22 2024, 5:26 pm
| daagahminayin wrote: | | I really enjoyed reading your thoughts and description of how your family does Pesach |
Thank you at a certain point I was afraid I was rambling
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daagahminayin
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Mon, Apr 22 2024, 5:38 pm
| singleagain wrote: | | Thank you at a certain point I was afraid I was rambling |
No it was nice!
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chestnut
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Mon, Apr 22 2024, 6:50 pm
Singleagain, I think the story situation is very different than your family because 1. Sounds like their parents are older and not that well; her husband wasn't able to help her at all. 2. Their mother herself told her son she's having a hard time with prep, and that's with a cleaning lady he sent. 3. There was no indication of either single sisters working more than regular hours. 4. They didn't even see their mom struggling with pesach prep, forget about actually helping her.
Maybe the brother should have spoken to sisters first, but then they'd be upset he still did it his way cause they still would have preferred staying home than going to him or a hotel.
Guess what should win between your convenience of putting your greasy hair on a pony and your mother not having to overwork?
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amother
Jasmine
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Tue, Apr 23 2024, 5:00 pm
| chestnut wrote: | Singleagain, I think the story situation is very different than your family because 1. Sounds like their parents are older and not that well; her husband wasn't able to help her at all. 2. Their mother herself told her son she's having a hard time with prep, and that's with a cleaning lady he sent. 3. There was no indication of either single sisters working more than regular hours. 4. They didn't even see their mom struggling with pesach prep, forget about actually helping her.
Maybe the brother should have spoken to sisters first, but then they'd be upset he still did it his way cause they still would have preferred staying home than going to him or a hotel.
Guess what should win between your convenience of putting your greasy hair on a pony and your mother not having to overwork? |
The sisters at home and Tzivia could have been told in advance that their mother was having too much difficulty making the chag, and they could choose to step up and do the work (including on Pesach) and be able to have Pesach in the house or else it would need to be by the brother.
The brother is a wonderful, giving person who doesn't seem to realize that there is any reason his sisters would have an issue with his plan. He's only seeing one side- it's an important one, but he is acting unilaterally and assuming that others will see things the same way he does.
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amother
Sienna
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Wed, Apr 24 2024, 7:08 am
I didn't read all the replies
My feelings is that the brother and sister on shlichus were not treating the Israeli sister and single sisters as adults. If they would have consulted with them instead of ordering them very possibly they would have ended up with the same plans but everyone would have been happy.
You never want to act patronizing with people like you know better or it won't end well...
I just want to add:
That siblings should never get in the way of a parent-child relationship with a different sibling. Children that live in Israel need a home to come back to. It is really important for them to be able to go to their parents. If that's not possible, then it's not possible and we have to accept that. But for another sibling to get in the way of that is very out of line. If a parent can't do that that is a parents perogative to speak up. If a parent lacks the ability to speak up that is a very different problem.
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singleagain
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Wed, Apr 24 2024, 9:30 pm
| chestnut wrote: | Singleagain, I think the story situation is very different than your family because 1. Sounds like their parents are older and not that well; her husband wasn't able to help her at all. 2. Their mother herself told her son she's having a hard time with prep, and that's with a cleaning lady he sent. 3. There was no indication of either single sisters working more than regular hours. 4. They didn't even see their mom struggling with pesach prep, forget about actually helping her.
Maybe the brother should have spoken to sisters first, but then they'd be upset he still did it his way cause they still would have preferred staying home than going to him or a hotel.
Guess what should win between your convenience of putting your greasy hair on a pony and your mother not having to overwork? |
My point, was that there was a very important side of this story missing. And that was the side of the single adults living at home. I only ever read the double take when someone posts about it here. Usually it really does just show two sides, but here we really needed the perspectives of not only the single adults, but also the parents. Bc this situation was not only between the Israeli sister and the brother. There were too many other people in play for this story.
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chestnut
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Wed, Apr 24 2024, 10:12 pm
| amother Jasmine wrote: | The sisters at home and Tzivia could have been told in advance that their mother was having too much difficulty making the chag, and they could choose to step up and do the work (including on Pesach) and be able to have Pesach in the house or else it would need to be by the brother.
The brother is a wonderful, giving person who doesn't seem to realize that there is any reason his sisters would have an issue with his plan. He's only seeing one side- it's an important one, but he is acting unilaterally and assuming that others will see things the same way he does. |
Do we know how close to pesach the mother told her son she can't do it?
Yes, he sees only one side - his mother's, which, let's face it, IS the most important. I take it, he knows how much his sister's are involved in the household running on a daily basis (sounds to me like not at all) and they obviously weren't attuned to their mother's (in)ability to make Pesach. THEY should have been the ones to reach out to him earlier saying it's not a good idea.
Even if they promised to help, would they be the ones doing the bulk of it? All cooking before Yom tov? Cooking on chol hamoed, for shabbos, last days? Highly doubt.
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chestnut
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Wed, Apr 24 2024, 10:16 pm
| singleagain wrote: | | My point, was that there was a very important side of this story missing. And that was the side of the single adults living at home. I only ever read the double take when someone posts about it here. Usually it really does just show two sides, but here we really needed the perspectives of not only the single adults, but also the parents. Bc this situation was not only between the Israeli sister and the brother. There were too many other people in play for this story. |
I also read this column only when posted here. Seems to me that we did get most sides here - mother, Tzivia, brother, and the single sisters. Yes, maybe they should have been consulted, but their mother's (in)ability to make pesach trumped all.
And as I said in the previous post, I wouldn't trust them to completely take over for the whole Pesach even if they said they'd help.
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singleagain
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Wed, Apr 24 2024, 10:18 pm
| chestnut wrote: | I also read this column only when posted here. Seems to me that we did get most sides here - mother, Tzivia, brother, and the single sisters. Yes, maybe they should have been consulted, but their mother's (in)ability to make pesach trumped all.
And as I said in the previous post, I wouldn't trust them to completely take over for the whole Pesach even if they said they'd help. |
Mom should have spoke to her daughters and said hey I need more help. Instead of complaining to her son who didn't live at a home.
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chestnut
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Wed, Apr 24 2024, 10:36 pm
| singleagain wrote: | | Mom should have spoke to her daughters and said hey I need more help. Instead of complaining to her son who didn't live at a home. |
Maybe she spoke to him because she knew her daughters won't rise to the occasion?
He already sent a cleaning lady to help her, but we haven't heard about them lifting a finger so far in pesach prep...
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singleagain
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Wed, Apr 24 2024, 10:55 pm
| chestnut wrote: | Maybe she spoke to him because she knew her daughters won't rise to the occasion?
He already sent a cleaning lady to help her, but we haven't heard about them lifting a finger so far in pesach prep... |
Do you realize how awkward it is to be an adult child living at home? You're an adult and have your own life, but most of the time you're probably living in your childhood bedroom. You have your own schedule and life to run, yet you have to take into account the schedule of your folks.
You may have a demanding job, one of the girls in the story worked in a tax office. The other one the job wasn't mentioned... But I'm sure pre pesach isn't an easy time in many jobs. I know in mine it's not. This is our busiest time of year. And if you add in dating and socialized, which I know my mother always encouraged me in... And yeah, maybe to the detriment of not having me available to help. But I do remember times I had the opportunity to go out during hectic erev chag times and my mom, amazing woman she is, realized that it was important for me to go, so she gave me permission.
In the story over if the girls was in the middle of a shidduch... You can bet mom was encouraging that. I mean doesn't life seem to revolve around "getting a good shidduch"
I feel like you're judging the single adults very harshly, when we didn't get the story from their POV. And the main issue from the POV of a tagalongs is when you aren't asked anything, bc it's assumed that you're just going to "tagalongs" with everyone else's plans.
When my folks tell me "oh by the way, we are having this guest over for Shabbat." It can be very difficult for me, bc now I have to dress up a bit, and be sociable when I've had a really long week and just want to stay shut in. Plus, I have to give up/share my bathroom, which means I have clean it up on a Friday instead of waiting till Sunday or whatever. The schedule that I had in my head is interrupted.
Look, I don't know you or your life story. I didn't know how long you lived at home or didn't or what anything was like.
I'm just trying to show the other other side that was not in the story, and there's only so much that my siblings who live out of the house know about me. So we can't assume that the siblings in this story knew everything about them.
Isn't the whole point of the double take to try to show different sides of the story?
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chestnut
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Wed, Apr 24 2024, 11:13 pm
| singleagain wrote: | Do you realize how awkward it is to be an adult child living at home? You're an adult and have your own life, but most of the time you're probably living in your childhood bedroom. You have your own schedule and life to run, yet you have to take into account the schedule of your folks.
You may have a demanding job, one of the girls in the story worked in a tax office. The other one the job wasn't mentioned... But I'm sure pre pesach isn't an easy time in many jobs. I know in mine it's not. This is our busiest time of year. And if you add in dating and socialized, which I know my mother always encouraged me in... And yeah, maybe to the detriment of not having me available to help. But I do remember times I had the opportunity to go out during hectic erev chag times and my mom, amazing woman she is, realized that it was important for me to go, so she gave me permission.
In the story over if the girls was in the middle of a shidduch... You can bet mom was encouraging that. I mean doesn't life seem to revolve around "getting a good shidduch"
I feel like you're judging the single adults very harshly, when we didn't get the story from their POV. And the main issue from the POV of a tagalongs is when you aren't asked anything, bc it's assumed that you're just going to "tagalongs" with everyone else's plans.
When my folks tell me "oh by the way, we are having this guest over for Shabbat." It can be very difficult for me, bc now I have to dress up a bit, and be sociable when I've had a really long week and just want to stay shut in. Plus, I have to give up/share my bathroom, which means I have clean it up on a Friday instead of waiting till Sunday or whatever. The schedule that I had in my head is interrupted.
Look, I don't know you or your life story. I didn't know how long you lived at home or didn't or what anything was like.
I'm just trying to show the other other side that was not in the story, and there's only so much that my siblings who live out of the house know about me. So we can't assume that the siblings in this story knew everything about them.
Isn't the whole point of the double take to try to show different sides of the story? |
I completely understand their side, jobs, dating, etc. Being busy at work and with their social lives further proves they couldn't be relied upon with Pesach preps.
Should the brother have asked them first? Maybe. Would that change anything, practically speaking? Not at all. They still wouldn't take over Pesach preps and would be even angrier about going to him AFTER they let him know that heir preferences.
(Btw, being 21 and 23 girls living at home is still different than "older singles" or someone who's divorced and moved back in. I have experience with both. I also know very well about being a tagalong).
As I said, their mother's health and wellbeing comes first. Unfortunately, seems like only their brother and another married sister understand it.
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singleagain
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Wed, Apr 24 2024, 11:19 pm
| chestnut wrote: | I completely understand their side, jobs, dating, etc. Being busy at work and with their social lives further proves they couldn't be relied upon with Pesach preps.
Should the brother have asked them first? Maybe. Would that change anything, practically speaking? Not at all. They still wouldn't take over Pesach preps and would be even angrier about going to him AFTER they let him know that heir preferences.
(Btw, being 21 and 23 girls living at home is still different than "older singles" or someone who's divorced and moved back in. I have experience with both. I also know very well about being a tagalong).
As I said, their mother's health and wellbeing comes first. Unfortunately, seems like only their brother and another married sister understand it. |
I disagree with the bolded. Being included in the conversation can make a huge difference. If you feel you're bring heard. Or maybe Mom didn't want to worry her daughters, so she tried to act like everything was okay. Do you know how many times my mother apologizes to me for not being able to do things the same way she did several years back? Maybe if Mom has been a bit more honest from the beginning, they would have pitched in a bit
Again, it all goes back to the open and honest communication that would have solved most of these double takes from the start.
Also, in general, it can be hard to admit that your mom can't be the same super mom your grew up with, especially if she isn't telling you about it.
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B'Syata D'Shmya
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Wed, Apr 24 2024, 11:37 pm
| singleagain wrote: | my thoughts as a 'tagalong'
first of all... as with most double takes, communication and expressing feelings before the resentment hits is the main lesson to learn.
.....
the way to handle this, would have been to pick up the phone and call the sister, 'ma's not having an easy time of it' even before pesach, if you're worried about your parents if that's physically or mentally or emotionally, you call your siblings and tell them. 'hey I'm worried about ma and pa, they seem to really be struggling. I was visiting the other day and saw xyz' 'dad saw the doctor and the doctor said no abc' you don't wait until the last minute and then steamroll everyone into doing what you think is right. The Mother literally asked the brother NOT to call and She would tell the sisters..
just bc you think it's right or should be appreciated doesn't mean everyone else does. and for goodness sake, talk to everyone your decision will affect. don't just talk to some of them. as a 'taggalong' it's the feeling of being left out of the decision that hurts the most. |
1) Happy 38th - ad meah vesrim!! May this be an amazing year full of bracha and hatzlacha.
2) You are not a " tagalong" but an integral part of your family. You are more important to the pple of your life than you think . This world would be nothing without you. And in the story- Yuntif would be nothing to the family without the sisters!! The Sisters are not background furnishings and even the brother picked up on their feelings and asked the Israeli sister about it. (the end of his narrative) . If they were just tagalongs, he would dismiss their feelings and say, too bad.
Your understanding that sometimes we do things we dont want to do, for the greater good, is part of the growing up process and of being an adult. I hear that in your narrative and it makes all the difference.
I agree with you that most Double Takes are an issue of lack of communication, However I disagree with you that there lacked communication in this situation. The communication was clear, the Mother told the daughters its too much for her, and they should have picked up on it earlier and offered to help. Sometimes communication is also non-verbal. You have to be sensitive and open your hearts to hear it. The sisters should wake up and open their eyes to their parents situation. Its too easy to remain blindfolded and then blame the brother who realized the difficulties and yes, swooped in to help - something he had the resources to do painlessly.
In the Double Take the Israeli Sister had the option of telling her mother, Ma, I really want Yuntif by you, in your home. I know its a ton of work, the preparing and hosting so I will do it all, you wont have to lift a finger, Foods on me, Disposable plates etc on me, We will Kasher the kitchen for you, We will do the shopping, We will bring linens etc. You wont have to wash a spoon or a washcloth....Everything we need, we will take care of or manage. We will put away Pesach and leave your home in pristine condition. We will do all the serving etc. Over Chol HaMoed, we will plan the day trips...etc.
But the Israeli Sister said none of that.
She complained behind their backs, held onto resentments, Conspired/commiserated with her unmarried sisters, who also had the same option as their married sisters. They could have said to their mother, Ma You go and enjoy, we will make other plans. Nobody forced them. They are adults.
When the mother told them they were going to brothers, that was when the sisters could have responded. By staying quiet, they became tagalongs.
If they had appreciated brothers offer, they would not have been tagalongs but active participants and a positive part of the story. By grumbling behind backs, they became ingrates...MHO.
If you really want - you make it happen. If you passively go along, even if you are grumpy about it, you are maskim. שתיקה כהודאה
BTW,הזורעים בדמעה ברינה יקצרו sometimes you push yourself to make Yuntif . Between the married daughter and her husband, and the two unmarried sisters - they could have made a simple but stellar Yuntif. The parents being from a Chinuch background, would have appreciated it.
Im gonna quote from the story:
" I was looking forward to being a guest"..(as in - and not working).. and later on "I can’t deny that part of me felt like I was in some sort of wonderland, being catered to like a princess on Erev Pesach."
Brother was graciously contributing towards their plane fare So its ok for brother to pay and they accept, except when it comes to their Mother making YT.
Mother communicated to israeli dtr that "it’s been a little much for me, all the preparing and everything, and you know Benny sent over cleaning help and stuff, but still..... I realized it’s a bit too much......I know you probably would have enjoyed being home. But the truth is — it just got too much for me. I haven’t hosted Pesach in a few years, and I just realized it would be a lot. And with Tatty feeling the way he does, he really can’t do too much heavy work, so Benny was sending us in a lot of help… and in the end, it just made more sense to switch things around and just go to him. This way, I can actually enjoy your company instead of being a total shmatteh Seder night, you know? "
This would have been the perfect opening to say, Ma, its on me, Im coming and we will make Yuntif. Instead the sister says " I wish we could just make Yom Tov here for you guys, but Tatty and Ma would be so hurt. Besides, it’s just not practical"
Is that communication? She is answering for her parents instead of respecting them and giving them the option to accept HER help making YT.
she tells her husband cynically "hey! Cancel on Tzivia and her family and just hang out by us for Yom Tov!’
Her mother never cancelled on her and the brother never told mother to do that.
The Israeli sister knew her brother had a screen in his play room and still sent her kids there alone. What was she expecting? She also spent half of Yuntif by her in laws but staying in her parents home while they were by the brother. She really could have done that for Leil HaSeder if she hated going to Brothers.
Regarding unmarried sister. ( I didnt hear their take and you are right, that was missing) but at their age its a given they go with their parents or make their own plans (friends, neighbors, local Rav..). Its not pleasant but what other options do they have?
Behaving poorly as the story goes : "my sisters were acting cliquey and snobby, as if we were strangers." was rude. Telling brother that they didnt want to be there - doesnt shtim with the Chinuch background their parents gave them.
Its not lack of communication, its lack of Hakaras HaTov and the ability to be an adult and say. Ma, this isnt what we want, thanks for the invite to join you by brothers mansion, but we will make other plans and see you during Chol HaMoed...
Complaining that they dont have a Pesach kitchen in their Mothers home, was also wrong, It would have taken her just a bit of time to clear some space and make a makeshift Pesach area - buy a single electric burner, a pan, a toaster oven, or whatever and make eggs for the kids, or hot dogs or whatever. Buy a peeler and knife and voila - your good to go.
With the right attitude you make it happen but dont blame brother for being helpful. Show Hakaras Hatov to your host.
To me it sounds like the sisters are holding onto a version of their Mother who no longer exists and they are grieving her no longer having the energy to be the young energetic mother she once was.
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amother
Marigold
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Wed, Apr 24 2024, 11:58 pm
From the beginning, I didn't really understand but if Benny was paying for a large chunk of their tickets, doesn't it make sense that he gets to dictate their visit? I was pretty shocked that he himself wasn't spending YT with them. I guess the whole point of the Double Take was that he has the meah so he has the deiya.
But there are literally threads on here where one side pays and the other side doesn't and almost everyone agrees that the side that pays gets the couple for longer or more ideal timing etc. That's normal.
If she didn't want Benny to have the upper-hand, then why accept the help?
And also, the main part of going to family for Pesach is spending time with the family and not the surroundings. They were literally given this opportunity on a silver platter.
I am on #TeamBenny. Yes, he could've communicated better. Maybe even from the beginning when he was paying for the tickets!!! Explain that Mommy and Totty aren't getting younger and if she wants to come, she better roll up her sleeves and be ready to help. And that they will be staying at X location.
And the single sibs. What's wrong with going? Do they really get any more of an excuse to have a greasy head at home? If people are looking at them, people are looking at them. Also, if they had been helping from the beginning, likely the parents would've been able to swing it!!! Plenty of elderly parents rely on their single children for help. And in this case, it would be win-win since the girls davka wanted to stay home.
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amother
Dandelion
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Thu, Apr 25 2024, 12:08 am
| B'Syata D'Shmya wrote: | 1) Happy 38th - ad meah vesrim!! May this be an amazing year full of bracha and hatzlacha.
2) You are not a " tagalong" but an integral part of your family. You are more important to the pple of your life than you think . This world would be nothing without you. And in the story- Yuntif would be nothing to the family without the sisters!! The Sisters are not background furnishings and even the brother picked up on their feelings and asked the Israeli sister about it. (the end of his narrative) . If they were just tagalongs, he would dismiss their feelings and say, too bad.
Your understanding that sometimes we do things we dont want to do, for the greater good, is part of the growing up process and of being an adult. I hear that in your narrative and it makes all the difference.
I agree with you that most Double Takes are an issue of lack of communication, However I disagree with you that there lacked communication in this situation. The communication was clear, the Mother told the daughters its too much for her, and they should have picked up on it earlier and offered to help. Sometimes communication is also non-verbal. You have to be sensitive and open your hearts to hear it. The sisters should wake up and open their eyes to their parents situation. Its too easy to remain blindfolded and then blame the brother who realized the difficulties and yes, swooped in to help - something he had the resources to do painlessly.
In the Double Take the Israeli Sister had the option of telling her mother, Ma, I really want Yuntif by you, in your home. I know its a ton of work, the preparing and hosting so I will do it all, you wont have to lift a finger, Foods on me, Disposable plates etc on me, We will Kasher the kitchen for you, We will do the shopping, We will bring linens etc. You wont have to wash a spoon or a washcloth....Everything we need, we will take care of or manage. We will put away Pesach and leave your home in pristine condition. We will do all the serving etc. Over Chol HaMoed, we will plan the day trips...etc.
But the Israeli Sister said none of that.
She complained behind their backs, held onto resentments, Conspired/commiserated with her unmarried sisters, who also had the same option as their married sisters. They could have said to their mother, Ma You go and enjoy, we will make other plans. Nobody forced them. They are adults.
When the mother told them they were going to brothers, that was when the sisters could have responded. By staying quiet, they became tagalongs.
If they had appreciated brothers offer, they would not have been tagalongs but active participants and a positive part of the story. By grumbling behind backs, they became ingrates...MHO.
If you really want - you make it happen. If you passively go along, even if you are grumpy about it, you are maskim. שתיקה כהודאה
BTW,הזורעים בדמעה ברינה יקצרו sometimes you push yourself to make Yuntif . Between the married daughter and her husband, and the two unmarried sisters - they could have made a simple but stellar Yuntif. The parents being from a Chinuch background, would have appreciated it.
Im gonna quote from the story:
" I was looking forward to being a guest"..(as in - and not working).. and later on "I can’t deny that part of me felt like I was in some sort of wonderland, being catered to like a princess on Erev Pesach."
Brother was graciously contributing towards their plane fare So its ok for brother to pay and they accept, except when it comes to their Mother making YT.
Mother communicated to israeli dtr that "it’s been a little much for me, all the preparing and everything, and you know Benny sent over cleaning help and stuff, but still..... I realized it’s a bit too much......I know you probably would have enjoyed being home. But the truth is — it just got too much for me. I haven’t hosted Pesach in a few years, and I just realized it would be a lot. And with Tatty feeling the way he does, he really can’t do too much heavy work, so Benny was sending us in a lot of help… and in the end, it just made more sense to switch things around and just go to him. This way, I can actually enjoy your company instead of being a total shmatteh Seder night, you know? "
This would have been the perfect opening to say, Ma, its on me, Im coming and we will make Yuntif. Instead the sister says " I wish we could just make Yom Tov here for you guys, but Tatty and Ma would be so hurt. Besides, it’s just not practical"
Is that communication? She is answering for her parents instead of respecting them and giving them the option to accept HER help making YT.
she tells her husband cynically "hey! Cancel on Tzivia and her family and just hang out by us for Yom Tov!’
Her mother never cancelled on her and the brother never told mother to do that.
The Israeli sister knew her brother had a screen in his play room and still sent her kids there alone. What was she expecting? She also spent half of Yuntif by her in laws but staying in her parents home while they were by the brother. She really could have done that for Leil HaSeder if she hated going to Brothers.
Regarding unmarried sister. ( I didnt hear their take and you are right, that was missing) but at their age its a given they go with their parents or make their own plans (friends, neighbors, local Rav..). Its not pleasant but what other options do they have?
Behaving poorly as the story goes : "my sisters were acting cliquey and snobby, as if we were strangers." was rude. Telling brother that they didnt want to be there - doesnt shtim with the Chinuch background their parents gave them.
Its not lack of communication, its lack of Hakaras HaTov and the ability to be an adult and say. Ma, this isnt what we want, thanks for the invite to join you by brothers mansion, but we will make other plans and see you during Chol HaMoed...
Complaining that they dont have a Pesach kitchen in their Mothers home, was also wrong, It would have taken her just a bit of time to clear some space and make a makeshift Pesach area - buy a single electric burner, a pan, a toaster oven, or whatever and make eggs for the kids, or hot dogs or whatever. Buy a peeler and knife and voila - your good to go.
With the right attitude you make it happen but dont blame brother for being helpful. Show Hakaras Hatov to your host.
To me it sounds like the sisters are holding onto a version of their Mother who no longer exists and they are grieving her no longer having the energy to be the young energetic mother she once was. |
Smart words.
Create the reality you would like to see, otherwise you will have no say.
The sisters living at home and the sister from Israel could have created the pesach they wanted, as can any of us in our own worlds. They played victim and ended up really hurting their benefactor.
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chestnut
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Thu, Apr 25 2024, 12:14 am
| singleagain wrote: | I disagree with the bolded. Being included in the conversation can make a huge difference. If you feel you're bring heard. Or maybe Mom didn't want to worry her daughters, so she tried to act like everything was okay. Do you know how many times my mother apologizes to me for not being able to do things the same way she did several years back? Maybe if Mom has been a bit more honest from the beginning, they would have pitched in a bit
Again, it all goes back to the open and honest communication that would have solved most of these double takes from the start.
Also, in general, it can be hard to admit that your mom can't be the same super mom your grew up with, especially if she isn't telling you about it. |
When you're an adult living with a parent and is attuned to them, it's not hard to see they can't do it any more. Granted, at 21 and 23 and super busy with their lives, they probably weren't that attuned.
Sisters complaining about their brother taking them to a hotel previously (oh, the horror!) tells me all I need to know about their being pretty self absorbed where putting their hair in a pony and having to get dressed takes precedence over their parents' comfort and not working hard.
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amother
Stone
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Thu, Apr 25 2024, 12:16 am
| chestnut wrote: | When you're an adult living with a parent and is attuned to them, it's not hard to see they can't do it any more. Granted, at 21 and 23 and super busy with their lives, they probably weren't that attuned.
Sisters complaining about their brother taking them to a hotel previously (oh, the horror!) tells me all I need to know about their being pretty self absorbed where putting their hair in a pony and having to get dressed takes precedence over their parents' comfort and not working hard. |
You misspelled "having no autonomy over where they spend their Yomim Tovim."
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