Anyone ever hear of this halacha?

amother

Tue, May 07 2024, 12:49 pm

I had guests for shabbos and was making coffee. I poured water from urn into mug then second mug before adding coffee .
My guest said at home they don't need to do that because they boil water in an electric kettle first and use that to fill the urn before shabbos. Making the urn kli shaini not rishon so they can make coffee directly.
Doesn't the urn become a kli rishon anyway because it's keeping the water hot? I tried to gently tell her she should confirm with a rav that the halacha works that way because I've never heard of such a thing and it seems wrong.
Anyone ever hear this makes sense? Am I misunderstanding?

amother

Moccasin

Tue, May 07 2024, 12:52 pm

Regardless of what happened before, the urn is directly heating the water. It's going from one kli rishon to another kli rishon.

amother

Mulberry

Tue, May 07 2024, 12:55 pm

Im confused about something else.
Why the need for 2 cups when making coffee? It thought you only need a kli shlishi (2nd cup] when making tea? Isnt it ok to add instant coffee to a kli sheini (1st cup) after putting the water in first?

amother

Bronze

Tue, May 07 2024, 12:57 pm

Yh it doesn't work like that... thats like pouring a kettle into a pot on the stove. Its still on the fire.

amother

Tue, May 07 2024, 12:58 pm

amother Moccasin wrote:

Regardless of what happened before, the urn is directly heating the water. It's going from one kli rishon to another kli rishon.

That's what I thought..just checking maybe I'm misunderstanding..

amother

Tue, May 07 2024, 12:59 pm

amother Mulberry wrote:

I don't think so..I always thought coffee needs kli shlishi too..

peace2

Tue, May 07 2024, 1:46 pm

amother OP wrote:

I don't think so..I always thought coffee needs kli shlishi too..

According to some. Since instant coffee is already cooked, many hold that it can be made in a kli sheini- ein bishul achar bishul. Some are machmir to use a kli shlishi for coffee as well (since there ain't no bishul in a kli shlishi)

happy chick

Tue, May 07 2024, 2:25 pm

Maybe they use a thermos type of urn that doesn't get plugged in (otherwise , why would they have to boil the water first?). Even then, I'm not sure if you don't need a kli shlishi. But makes more sense.

Happydance

Tue, May 07 2024, 3:05 pm

Sounds like they got confused between the differences between heating solids and liquids. Ain bishul acher bishul with a solid
But yesh bishal acher bishal with a liquid, so no matter what, the water is always considered to be being heated again like new even if it was already heated

amother

Moccasin

Tue, May 07 2024, 3:11 pm

amother Mulberry wrote:

Yes, *most* instant coffee can be put in kli sheini. Maybe op was using real coffee, not instant, which many hold would need kli shlishi like tea.

Brit in Israel

Tue, May 07 2024, 3:13 pm

happy chick wrote:

Could be this. we use to use a thermos that kept warm 24 hrs so didn't need kli shlishi on Shabbos.

ShishKabob

Tue, May 07 2024, 3:14 pm

peace2 wrote:

We are machmir with this as are many other people. Make sure to clarify with your lor.

amother

Orchid

Tue, May 07 2024, 4:06 pm

amother Moccasin wrote:

Yes, *most* instant coffee can be put in kli sheini. Maybe op was using real coffee, not instant, which many hold would need kli shlishi like tea.

That would mean they were brewing coffee, which I didn't think is permitted on Shabbos at all. What do you mean "most" instant coffee? Either it's instant, in which case it was already brewed, or it's not, in which case it's being brewed. Folger's has coffee bags that are like tea bags, which you brew by pouring boiling water over it, and you really need boiling water to make it, otherwise it's like ditchwater.

amother

Ruby

Tue, May 07 2024, 4:13 pm

amother Ruby wrote:

Instant coffee that goes in AFTER the hot water water in a kli sheini is mutar. Some are machmir to to do this in a kli shlishi.

It’s in the hilchos Shabbos Sefer by Rav Simcha Bunin Cohen. He also holds that making tea on Shabbos from a teabag is always asur, but my Rav holds its Mutar in a kli shlishi

amother

Moccasin

Tue, May 07 2024, 4:21 pm

amother Orchid wrote:

There are certain types of instant coffee crystals that are prepared differently. I believe freeze dried instant is a problem because it has not been cooked before.

Brewing actual coffee- many hold that it is permitted in kli shlishi. People use pour over to brew coffee.

amother

Peru

Tue, May 07 2024, 4:28 pm

amother Orchid wrote:

I think that the elite powder coffee needs a kli shlishi but I might be mistaken