Really don't want to vaccinate my kid

GLUE

Tue, May 07 2024, 3:42 pm

#BestBubby wrote:

BB: Yes, there are RARE cases of injury from Rubella, Measles and other diseases.
But vaccines are likely the main cause of autism and the skyrocketing of many other diseases like epilepsy, diabetes, ADHD, SIDS - all these diseases are listed on vaccine inserts.
Per the CDC, 40% of American Children have at least one chronic disease.

There has been a few studies comparing vaccinated to unvaccinated children and the unvaccinated children were much healthier.

Dr. Paul Thomas' study on thousands of children showed the rate of ASD in unvaccinated
children was one in 715, compared to one in 45 for children with ASD vaccinated per the CDC.

Around every 7 years a bunch of kids where born with birth defects because there mother had Rubella during pregnancy. That was why the catholic church was a big funder of that vaccine. It was an anti abortion vaccine.
Diabetes has been rising in this country since the 1850's. That's when people started to keep track of it.
SIDS rates have been falling thence 1969 when the county has started to count them. They also fell a lot during the 1990's during the back to sleep campaign and after the FDA approved a bunch more vaccines.
I know people have said that in 2020 the number of SIDS babies dropped, it did not
https://publications.aap.org/p.....ected
ADHD started to rise after Ritalin was found and people stopped calling it rotten child syndrome

The study down by Dr. Thomas, did all the kids who did not get vaccines did they not get them because there parents where into health?
I have seen some studies that kids who don't get vaccines because it's part of the parents over hull neglect have worse health then those who do.
Kids who are neglected are also less likely to have ASD because nobody is on top of them to get the diagnose.

#BestBubby

Tue, May 07 2024, 4:57 pm

amother Yarrow wrote:

You really want to know? I’ll show you.
And nice of you to follow the cdc when it suits your agenda. I suppose you ask different rabbanim different shailos too…

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/p.....4417/
The results of the 19 articles do not support a causal relationship between childhood immunization and the development of autism.

I didn't research all your links but I looked at this one entitled

Does Vaccination Raise the Risk of Autism Spectrum Disorder?

The "proof" was 19 cherry picked studies showing that vaccines don't cause autism.

That is no proof because I can show 400 studies that DO show a link between autism and other diseases and vaccines.

I didn't look at the 19 studies this study was based on but you can already see the flaws on this study.

Also, this study is deceptive as it implies there is only one study that links autism and vaccines when there are hundreds (but that is hidden).

amother

Cantaloupe

Tue, May 07 2024, 5:10 pm

#BestBubby wrote:

They were not cherry picked, do you understand what a systematic review is? They explain their study methods quite clearly. And as you stated but then obfuscated, 19 studies were included, not one.

Research had debunked the theory that vaccines cause autism over and over again.

amother

Lightcoral

Tue, May 07 2024, 5:51 pm

This conversation is mind boggling to me.
The reason these things are written in the insert is so the company doesn't get sued.
If there was one case of ADHD, ASD etc associated with the vaccine they could write it in the insert. It doesn't mean there is a causal relationship, it means there can be.

At the end of the day, you ask your Rav and doctor what to do. And if you want to send your kid to school, you have to follow the rules. And if you're told to vaccinate, you trust in Hashem that you're following the guidance you received and it's the best thing to do for your child. And whatever happens is what He wanted to happen. Whether it's from the vaccine or from eating too many tradition soups.

amother

Powderblue

Tue, May 07 2024, 7:26 pm

amother Emerald wrote:

If there would be a vaccine against cancer, wouldn't you take it??

Just because you bh don't live in the world of polio etc. doesn't mean that we shouldn't vaccinate. How those ppl wish they could've gotten the shot.

There is one, supposedly, HPV.

IF (and this is a big if) I was convinced about its efficacy and safety, I would consider it. But even if it ever materializes, it will likely not be risk-free. Everything has a tradeoff. That's part of Olam Hazeh, it's Eitz Hadaas Tov V'ra.

I know a guaranteed way to avoid dying in car accidents: Never travel in a car!

Will you sign up? Or are you willing to assume that risk for convenience, comfort, or practicality?

Life comes with many choices. We don't all make the same ones. Our circumstances, our health profiles, our risk tolerance all vary. I consider motorized scooters and backyard pools too dangerous for me, but that doesn't make those who choose otherwise foolhardy. And even though their choices impact me (an accidentally unlocked pool gate is just as enticing to a neighbor's toddler, and your child might generously offer mine a ride on his new scooter) I respect that we are all allowed to make those decisions.

For whatever reason, I don't find chicken pox as much of a threat, and for the tiny window of time where the pertussis vaccine has a decent chance of being effective and pertussis itself is life-threatening, I'm not willing to assume the side effects of the shot.

That's how it works. We understand there are potential consequences, and we choose the ones we can live with. Just like you.

Of course, Hashem runs the world. Some children have R"L suffered terribly from a vaccine response, and others from a VPD. We make the decisions we can with the information we have, trusting Hashem that what happens is what is meant to be.

But one choice is not morally superior than another, unless you are making it for the wrong reasons. Hashem could have made this issue black and white and for whatever reason it is not so.

amother

Stoneblue

Tue, May 07 2024, 7:28 pm

amother Yarrow wrote:

I think it’s making sure everyone is protected from horrible illnesses and sicknesses.
I guess you love Biden and agree with his policies on open borders and letting people completely unvaccinated come in. Anyone can come however they are, no matter what they identify as or what people they associate with and everything. Everyone is welcome and is accepted and you can’t say anything bad about anyone. No questions asked. I never realized how liberal you were.

If they really care about protecting people from horrible illness and sickness, there’s a lot more they can do. Let’s start with what’s being sold in the supermarket.
Exactly, the liberals don’t care about unvaccinated immigrants coming in, but they are the people mandating all these unnecessary vaccines in the name of herd immunity. It really makes you wonder.

WhatFor

Tue, May 07 2024, 7:45 pm

amother Red wrote:

Back in the day prevaccines 40% of children didn’t survive childhood

I'm not sure of the exact number but I agree that way more children weren't surviving childhood than today.

And that's what makes me wonder: plenty of kids with ASD also have comorbid autoimmune issues. So even if you assumed it's true that more people have autism today (not settled science at all, but let's assume for the sake of argument).... what if the kids with autism were simply more likely to die of childhood diseases than a NT person? What if vaccines are actually more likely to save the lives of kids with autism, and that's why there's (supposedly) more kids with autism around. And what if the anti-vax movement is inadvertently advocating for fewer kids with autism in a really really dark way?

That, of course, leaves aside the well known fact that autism was simply not diagnosed as much in prior generations. I know of multiple people IRL, and this is in a very small pool of people, who only recently learned they have autism as adults, despite having struggled with it their whole lives. Some even learn about it only when their kids are diagnosed. So even the idea that "more people have autism now than previously" is saddled with a huge question mark.

WhatFor

Tue, May 07 2024, 7:58 pm

fig wrote:

can someone please explain to me why vaccinated people are afraid of selfish unvaccinated people if it’s believed that the vaccines work to prevent diseases?

I feel like this has been explained ad infinitum. Understanding this concept requires the skill of seeing things in shades of gray and not only in black-and-white.

The gray here is that most people who understand science don't believe that the vaccine is 100% effective for every single person every single time they get vaccinated. However, if something is only effective 99.5 percent of the time (for example) or even 95% of the time, it's still a worthy endeavor. Imagine hearing about someone who wore a seatbelt and was killed in an accident anyway, and concluding from that to never wear a seatbelt because it's not 100% effective 100% of the time. That would be ridiculous, right? So most rational people who want to protect themselves and have no medical-contraindication will still vaccinate. Even knowing that they may still get the virus, whether in a milder form or not.

The thing is, the people whose vaccines weren't effective rely on herd immunity. That means that it's statistically unlikely for it to matter if your vaccine wasn't effective if nearly all people in your community were vaccinated. Since most vaccines are effective, the virus won't spread in such a community and you'll never know that your vaccine wasn't even effective. Just as importantly, there are a small portion of people who actually cannot be vaccinated due to medical reasons, and these people are usually most vulnerable to having severe effects from the virus. All these people rely on the people around them to do the bare minimum to keep the community safe.

And when more and more people don't vaccinate, the herd immunity goes down. Meaning there's more people in the community who can spread the virus and increase risk to the small group whose vaccines weren't effective and even worse, to the most vulnerable people in the community.

Most people actually care about the wellbeing of their friends and family. Even if their family members is immunocompromised. I hope that helps you understand more clearly why vaccinated people are afraid of selfish people who insist on living in and benefiting from a community without doing the bare minimum to reduce risk for people in the community.

amother

Powderblue

Tue, May 07 2024, 8:00 pm

WhatFor wrote:

Instead of going back several hundred years (which complicates matters with hygiene issues, lack of medical care, and starvation), why not look at 50-60 years ago, before those vaccines were introduced en masse, and when medical care was much advanced from the shtetel era?

The mortality rate from measles was lower than covid, despite the lack of advanced medical technology. Many autoimmune diseases were far rarer, and severe allergies were not nearly as common.

Sure it wasn't all roses, and we have made tremendous progress in many areas. But just as not everyone is convinced that the dramatic advances in social media and AI are contributing positively to society, or feel that genetic engineering and chemical pesticides are not necessarily a clear benefit, not all of us are convinced that vaccines are actually such a healthy development.

It is extremely difficult to get accurate information, especially when one side seems unusually defensive and evangelical in their praise of vaccines (no! they're perfectly safe! I promise you! that wasn't a side effect!), and the other side often tends to wacky extremes and conspiracy theories in attempting to discredit them (it's big pharma, out to get you! Bill Gates is trying to reduce world population! the doctors are all in on this!).

I did my research, including reading tens or hundreds of Pubmed articles, combing through CDC's site, reading the Cochrane reviews, and as many of the references as I could get my hands on. That was the best I could do.

(Herd immunity, it turns out, is not as simple as we would like it to be.)

My conclusion was not equivocal. I'm not convinced solidly in either direction. So my decision for now is Shev V'al Taaseh. If I find an understanding doctor who lets me decline some shots, split others, and delay or space the rest, I might vaccinate the rest of my kids. For now, I'm holding off.

But I have relatives and friends who are 100% on schedule and others who would move countries rather than vaccinate. I can't say I know who is right.

But neither can you, and that's my point.

As a curious person, my hishtadlus involved much more research than many other people. Others are doing their hishtadlus by simply going to their well-visits and following instructions. At the end of the day, we're all Jews trying to do our best in the eyes of Hashem.

#BestBubby

Tue, May 07 2024, 8:51 pm

WhatFor wrote:

1. 40% of American children in the 1940s and 1950s did not die.

2. You sound like your saying that measles and rubella killed off the autistic children.
Kids got measles, rubella and chicken pox mostly in elementary school and they were not autistic.

Autism is generally diagnosed at age 3-4.