Teaching tsnius without judgement

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Forum -> Parenting our children -> School age children

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amother

Thu, May 23 2024, 9:41 am

How do you teach your kids about tsnius in a way that's still respectful to others who may not do as you do? For context we're MO and we live in a community where attire really runs the full spectrum. We also have secular relatives. My kids are young (oldest is 5). I don't know if I should tell them we dress this way because we're Jewish because lots of Jewish people dress differently.

I've been saying sleeveless is not appropriate to wear outside (relative bought them sleeveless dresses with a shirt under and they want to wear without). But they're very literal and I don't want them to go telling people in sleeveless that they're dressed inappropriately, so I feel that that's not a good approach. They generally want to wear dresses and skirts because that's what everyone wears at school, so that hasn't been an issue, but I'm sure it'll come up eventually too.

Aurora

Thu, May 23 2024, 9:46 am

amother OP wrote:

I hear you. We also have relatives that aren't Orthodox, but still come for holidays.

The best I have been able to do is a blanket approach of: we practice our Judaism in a specific way. They are Jewish in a different way. But we still love them, and they are still Jews.

parsley

Thu, May 23 2024, 9:46 am

amother OP wrote:

There aren’t any perfect answers… but I tell my kids very matter of factly. Almost like some people have brown eyes vs blue eyes. Everyone’s different. Shrug.
I find the more we’re afraid of the topic, the more we give life to the fire. When it’s just a fact of life (some people have brown skin, some white, and you have ice cream around your mouth!) it loses its steam.

amother

Crocus

Thu, May 23 2024, 9:48 am

This is how we dress. It’s what we feel is right for our family. Every family decides which path to follow.

watergirl

Thu, May 23 2024, 10:00 am

Reclaiming Dignity. Everyone needs to read this book. https://www.feldheim.com/reclaiming-dignity

amother

Milk

Thu, May 23 2024, 10:16 am

We are also MO. We cover knees and elbows, wear skirts. Necklines within reasonable distance of collarbone, but not necessary to cover. Socks not required. I cover my hair.

I explain to my kids that there may be different reasons that they see other frum girls and women not dressed to our standards. Some actually hold differently and there may be a basis for that. For example, we don't wear short sleeves, but there is what to rely on for wearing them. Other people just don't think about the sources or halacha much and they just wear what they grew up wearing. Other people have a hard time following certain halachot. Either way, we don't comment on what we think other people may be doing wrong. We should be focusing on ourselves, we all have things we can improve.

Likewise, I explain that some people have stricter standards and they, especially children, may be looking at us and may not know or understand our basis for how we dress.

As kids get older, I think it is important to discuss the key sources with them, building from the mishna and gemara and up to more recent poskim. I have found the Deracheha website invaluable for this.

amother

NeonYellow

Thu, May 23 2024, 10:19 am

We dress in a way that reflects who we are inside. We are princesses and we dress to reflect that

amother

Cornsilk

Thu, May 23 2024, 10:31 am

I don't think you can guarantee that young children who take things literally will understand the subtlety of such a concept. Explain it as best as you can, but don't expect them to fully get it.

I taught my daughter that Hashem loves when she covers her elbows. I thought that was so great. It's showing her that it is an extra, not required, and framing it as a positive. I made sure to always say that Hashem loves everyone no matter how they dress. Then I got a tongue lashing from a relative because my 4 year old said something like "Hashem doesn't love you." She used it as proof that I'm teaching my child terrible things.

This is the same child who said that when she grows up she wants to be a lion. Am I also to blame for not teaching her biology correctly?

AlwaysGrateful

Thu, May 23 2024, 10:45 am

amother Milk wrote:

I explain to my kids that there may be different reasons that they see other frum girls and women not dressed to our standards. Some actually hold differently and there may be a basis for that. For example, we don't wear short sleeves, but there is what to rely on for wearing them. Other people just don't think about the sources or halacha much and they just wear what they grew up wearing. Other people have a hard time following certain halachot. Either way, we don't comment on what we think other people may be doing wrong. We should be focusing on ourselves, we all have things we can improve.

Likewise, I explain that some people have stricter standards and they, especially children, may be looking at us and may not know or understand our basis for how we dress.

For the record, we're not MO (we're yeshivish), and this is what I do. I think it's a really important conversation to have with your children. Combined with "This is what our rav holds" or "We asked our rav and he said..." which is something we say often in our house.

OP said her oldest is five, though. I don't think a typical five year old would be able to understand these concepts...but maybe a very watered down version.

And it goes both ways, for places we're more machmir and for places we're more maikil. Why don't we wait until three to cut our sons' hair? Because we asked our rav about it, and he said if we don't have that minhag, there's no real reason to take it on. Why do we use our oven for milchigs but also for covered fleishigs when their friend says you're not allowed to, why don't we eat frozen broccoli without a hechsher when a relative does, why don't we sell chometz gamur even though Grandma does? The answer most of the time is that we asked our rav, here's what he answered, here's the reason why, and here's why other rabbanim hold differently. That might work at age five.

I didn't have the more complex conversation about people who are just doing things the way that they grew up or people who find certain halachos very difficult until they were a bit older, maybe nine or so? Until their preteen years, I don't think they can really grasp that. Until then, they can assume that everyone is doing whatever their rav holds.

yiddishmom

Thu, May 23 2024, 1:22 pm

I tell my son that everyone tries the best that they can.

In regards to anything Jewish related.

We are heimish but we have a very colorful family.

The other day we were speaking to a man who didn't wear a yarmulke. My son wanted to know if the guy keeps shabbos if he doesn't have a yarmulke. We told him everyone tries their best, but we do know that this man did us a favor so he is a tzadik.....

amother

Milk

Thu, May 23 2024, 1:45 pm

AlwaysGrateful wrote:

I didn't have the more complex conversation about people who are just doing things the way that they grew up or people who find certain halachos very difficult until they were a bit older, maybe nine or so? Until their preteen years, I don't think they can really grasp that. Until then, they can assume that everyone is doing whatever their rav holds.

I wouldn't have minded postponing some conversations, but for us it's not an option. Neither DH nor I are FFB, and our extended families include non-frum and non-Jewish people. Also, they know people who are shomer Shabbos and kashrus, yet wear shorts and tank tops. I am not going to leave my kids with the impression that such an outfit is following another rav.

parsley

Thu, May 23 2024, 2:37 pm

amother NeonYellow wrote:

We dress in a way that reflects who we are inside. We are princesses and we dress to reflect that

How does that go over? Think like a child. They’re not a princess. It’s confusing. Ie, princesses wear gowns. We don’t.
A lot of the cliches we grew up on is not working for this generation. (To be honest- it didn’t work for us either, but we were much more likely [submissive?] to follow whatever we were told.)
They may or may not throw the baby out with the bath water so to speak. It wasn’t true that I’m a princess, so it must be that the basis of tznius is also platitudes.

amother

Thu, May 23 2024, 4:42 pm

Thanks for all of the responses. I realized I do know what to say based on our conversations about shabbos, but I need to teach my kids to think about how they talk to others so they don't do things like tell people that they're dressed inappropriately.

amother

Jade

Thu, May 23 2024, 5:32 pm

We’ve lived waaay out of town all our life. I always explain that everyone makes their own choices, and Hashem loves everyone, regardless of how they look or dress.

ETA I think my relationship with dress/ tznius is one of the biggest influencers for my daughters.

amother

Steelblue

Thu, May 23 2024, 5:56 pm

parsley wrote:

Maybe not a Disney princess, but most definitely a princess. It is absolutely engrained into each of my girls that they are in fact a bas melech and thus dress appropriately.

OP, we live in a very mixed neighborhood. The kids understand that we do things slightly differently than others, not just with tznius but other areas -- kashrus for example.

yiddishmom

Thu, May 23 2024, 8:17 pm

Of course we are bnei Malachi! I always tell my 4 year old son that because he is Hashem's Ben melech, we need to look respectful. Keep ourselves clean, wash our hands, make our paiyos before running out.

And as another poster mentioned, it really depends on how the parents feel about XYZ subject and what kind of relationship they have with the mitzvah. It passes over to the children by osmosis.

zaq

Thu, May 23 2024, 9:57 pm

If you tell your dd that she dresses a certain way because she's a princess, you're telling her that those who dress differently are not princesses. If your DD is a princess then all Jewish girls are princesses. Some of them may be rebellious princesses or reluctant princesses or even princesses who were snatched by evil fairies and fostered by wolves in the forest, but they're still princesses. Implying that they're of peasant stock because their dress doesn't meet your elevated standards is ugly and wrong.

tulip3

Thu, May 23 2024, 10:00 pm

The princess analogy just doesnt work. Princesses dress respectfully for big occasions but not necessarily cover the knees or elbows. And they still look respectful.

amother

Petunia

Thu, May 23 2024, 10:10 pm

tulip3 wrote:

The princess analogy just doesnt work. Princesses dress respectfully for big occasions but not necessarily cover the knees or elbows. And they still look respectful.

today's generation bc the world's morality has gone down
But they used to!

bigsis144

Thu, May 23 2024, 10:32 pm

amother Petunia wrote:

today's generation bc the world's morality has gone down
But they used to!

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