Housework Harridan or Parenting Paragon?

amother

Thu, Dec 11 2008, 10:32 am

when I was growing up, we were expected to help out a lot. with many kids KAH, my mother couldnt do it all herself. even though we did have once a week cleaning help for the big stuff.
when I was 12 after my brother was born, my older sister and I took turns making supper for months.
granted we made easy suppers, but it was all my responsibilty every other night. I never resented it.
we were asked to help clean up, unload and load the dishwashers.
I didnt like cleaning, and would sometimes escape to the basement to avoid being asked, which I regret now, but if asked I would do it. this is on a regular basis.
but on weekends, erev shabbos all the girls were expected to cook for shabbos. we would divide up the list of dishes and each mark our name by what we would do. at any time before shabbos we would do our dish, there was no nagging nor complaiing b/c , it was our responsibitly that we chose.
somehow my mother did all the laundry, I never helped with that, besides for putting away the folded clothing. most shabbosim my mother didnt cook at all, she used to do the cleaning up..
before pesach we would sometimes be kept home from school to help clean, which was fine with me.
our vacations were spent cleaning the attic, and all the stuff that never managed to get done. that did bother me.

when my mother had to go away for 2 weeks I was in charge of running the house, and I did a great job and I am still very proud of it today. only one day did I go home early from school to wash the floors, my teachers thought I was nuts. but I was proud of my responsibilty.
every so often I would go down to the kitchen late at night when my mother would be sleeping, and clean up the kitchen spotless. I know these morning surprises meant a lot to my mother. especially since she was always so tired.

looking back I realize that when something was my responsibilty and I would be able to look at what I had accomplished and be proud, I had no problem doing that. the only housework I hated was the stuff that went unseen or unacknowledged. like filling one load of dishes, while someone else cleaned the floor, etc, wasnt very satisfying. but cleaning the entire kitchen myself without being asked, and knowing I was surprising my mother and it would make her happy. I loved to do that.

before pesach we were each expected to clean our own rooms, plus one major room like the dining room, living room or kitchen, I used to choose the kitchen, I liked the kitchen, even though it was hard but my mother would do it with me, while my sisters did the other rooms, and it was fun.
all the stuff I mentioned above started when I was about 12-14, and continued till I got married.
when I was younger than that I was able to make a cake or salad, and probably some unloading dishwashers. but not much else. my mother would try to ask me but I would always manage to get away with not helping. what can I say? I was young and immature, and I didnt fully understand how much my mother needed my help.

anon b/c this stuff is personal.

Fox

Thu, Dec 11 2008, 11:30 am

Thanks for the feedback, all! I feel somewhat validated that I'm not crazy, and at the same time, there are definitely things I can tweak.

Just to clarify for the benefit of various posters:

I do have sons; however, one is away at yeshiva and one is 9. The 9-year-old does help with age-appropriate tasks, but they're usually less "mission critical" assignments than the teenage girls are given.

Trust me when I say that relaxing my standards any more than I already do would invite the health department! Although with the Illinois government in its current state, I might get away with it!

The time estimates I gave were averages only. Some days might involve less; others more. Also, the tasks vary in the amount of hands-on time required. Cooking rice, for example, might mean a total of 30 minutes, but 20 of those minutes could be spent sitting in the den reading book or doing homework.

As for what mom and dad are doing while the kids are cleaning: I'm in the office from 9-:5:30, and often have to do additional work in the evening for international clients in different time zones. I do all shopping, all transportation of kids to appointments, tutoring, etc. My kids get ready for bed at 9 with the goal of going to sleep by 9:30 p.m. Dad is not able to participate because of health issues.

Deep in my heart, I suspect that my real beef is with my DDs' schools: they are just so disdainful of their students helping around the house unless it's through some organized chesed program. Homework is regularly given on Thursday evenings, and major tests are regularly scheduled on Fridays. When I've suggested that maybe teenage girls should be available to their mothers on Thursday evenings, the principals and teachers act as if I'm some kind of anti-intellectual who cares nothing for the life of the mind. I really feel they make it harder for parents -- or at least for this parent! When kids are repeatedly told that nothing ever comes before homework and studying -- well, that's just not our reality.

For example, my two 8th graders have four tests scheduled this week, including two major tests. In addition, they have a lengthy Chumash "packet" due. If you asked their teachers, they would probably respond that most of the tests do not require hours and hours of study if you've kept up with the work. True, but the girls get very nervous and anxious before the tests, and there's always a lot of calling and comparing notes to make sure they've covered all bases. So I seem unreasonable if I suggest putting the test in perspective, doing a little studying, and letting it go -- after all, their friends are supposedly devoting their entire evenings to the endeavor.

Anyway, I have a feeling I'm not going to change the either/or attitude of the schools, so I'll have to make my peace with it!

zaq

Thu, Dec 11 2008, 2:13 pm

Fox wrote:

Deep in my heart, I suspect that my real beef is with my DDs' schools: they are just so disdainful of their students helping around the house unless it's through some organized chesed program. ...When kids are repeatedly told that nothing ever comes before homework and studying -- well, that's just not our reality.

Anyway, I have a feeling I'm not going to change the either/or attitude of the schools, so I'll have to make my peace with it!

I'm with you in this all the way, Fox. In my book, chessed begins at home, and so my kids have been advised. No, heart of my heart, you are NOT going to help Mrs. Kunilemmel clean her house for Pesach till we finish cleaning ours--with your full participation. which isn't chessed anyway, it's your job.

I am also very annoyed at the yeshivas which davka on thursday night have extra late night seder, which is not precisely mandatory but the pressure to participate is very, very high. Punkt Thursday night when I have to get the house ready for shabbos--I work f/t--they're off in their holy-holy-holy male bonding spiritual elevation hasmodah cholentfest. No wonder we have young and not so young ladies on here moaning that dh is always in the BM and doesn't lift a finger around the house! This pattern of behavior is inculcated early. I was troubled already in grade school when over the pesach vacations, the boys had mitzvah charts to mark off how many hours they learned, while the girls had charts to mark off how many hours they helped their mothers clean for pesach. this is an outrage!

. If I told the rosh yeshiva that my son is not allowed to go to night seder because he has to put away his laundry, make his bed and vacuum his room, I'd be laughed into next week, after which I'd get a lecture about a young man's role in Jewish life and how I as the mother am guilty of causing bittul torah if I make my son work around the house instead of running off to the BM. I'm supposed to joyfully pick up after a perfectly able-bodied young man because in doing so I'm enabling him to learn Torah and that's my role in life. which is fine IMO if that's what you Mrs. Yeshivaboysmother really want and aren't just saying that because that's what you were told in sem that you're supposed to want, but inside you're seething with resentment. You are obviously on a much higher spiritual level than I am. I myself did NOT sign up for any such thing.

Says I: Narishkeit! My Good Book does not read "thou shalt pick up after thy children"! My book says that preparing for shabbos is a mitzvah for everyone. The world is not a cafteria, and you don't get to pick and choose the pleasant and glamorous and leave the scut work for everyone else. even in the beis Hamikdosh, there was scut work. Holy scut work, but still scut work. and conversely, scut work, but still holy work! Someone had to clean the ashes off the mizbeach and remove the charred wicks from the golden menorah. everyone wants to light the menorah, but no one wants to clean it.

our body is a mishkan for our soul, and our house is a mishkan for our body. therefore it's a mitzzvah to keep both our bodies and our homes clean and orderly. lo hamidrash haikar ela hamaaseh--the main principle is not study but action. One studies to be able to act. Therefore, in my book, shabbos preparation trumps late-night seder.

Alas, Fox, like you I know I'm not going to change the system--but I don't have to let the system dictate how I run my house.

amother

Thu, Dec 11 2008, 4:36 pm

we had to help out alot in the house, alot of it was fine like making salads, putting away laundry, general clean up, making kids lunches, babysitting.

we had a job chart for after supper chores which was - setting table, cleaning table, sweeping, washing dishes. everyone chose which jobs they wanted wich days and it was reasonable

now to the things I resented: we had to take care of the kids every shabbos and sunday mornings and keep them quiet so my mother could sleep as she would stay up late at nights. (my father was at work or shul)
we werent appreciated for what we did and I felt the only time the job got noticed was if u did a bad job

I felt we were judged how good of a child we were by how much we helped, like I tried to get away with helping so I was lazy
and most importantly - as a child I felt that my mother wasnt doing much while we were helping, thats how it seemed to me then which I really resented, though in hindset that wasnt the total reality
for ex my mother would make supper and one of us would make a salad but the rest of the night we were the ones cleaning up, washing dishes, making lunches. after we went to sleep she would stay up and do the heavier cleaning like washing the counters/stove but to us it seemd... and then she would sleep in and we would get the younger kids off to school

mimivan

Thu, Dec 11 2008, 4:54 pm

I was hesitant to reply, Fox, because your situation must be hard, especially given the fact you work full time and your dh can't give you a hand. but in a chinuch class given by Rebbetzin Chana Kanterman in Yirushalaim, I learned that when we ask kids to help, it should be for chinuch reasons, not to save ourselves the expense of getting cleaning help.

This was tough for me to hear, because my dh can't help and because we can't afford cleaning help, but I see the wisdom in it. However, I think it just depends on the attitude. If each child is given 30 minute jobs every day for their chinuch and as a life skill that is one thing. I was told, though, not to expect it of a child as a way to help the mother.

I try to find the things kids like. My dh loves to make salad. My little one loves to peel veggies. Even though I have to "coach" them, I'm not only helping myself, but I"m doing my future Kallas iy'h a favor Wink

Dh thinks it is silly for boys to help, but that is a cultural thing (Sephardic Israeli) He can think it is silly if he wants, but in my opinion, it is like putting money in a trust fund. I am investing in their shalom bayis for the future...

zaq

Fri, Dec 12 2008, 9:42 am

amother wrote:

as a child I felt that my mother wasnt doing much while we were helping, thats how it seemed to me then which I really resented, though in hindset that wasnt the total reality
............ after we went to sleep she would stay up and do the heavier cleaning like washing the counters/stove but to us it seemd... and then she would sleep in and we would get the younger kids off to school

that was an eye-openr! I wish I'd let my kids see me working hard when they were younger. I also would wait tll they were in bed to do the major heavy work, patly b/c if I was using chemicals I didn't want them around. now that they're older I still do much of the work when they're not home b/c it's easier when no one's underfoot and I still don't want them around chemicals. maybe I should have someone video me doing housework and showing the fam just what I do when they're not around. when the kids are washing dishes after supper that's my time to relax b/c I can't work in the kicthen till they're done. so maybe their image of me is someone who sits down and reads a book while they're "slaving away" at the sink.

creativemommyto3

Mon, Dec 15 2008, 6:23 pm

zaq wrote:

Fox wrote:

Ah, this lady over here works til practically 1 AM on Thursday nites.. and guess what? My children and I either clean up together a bit on Thursday or on Friday. Also , I bake earlier in the week and freeze for a couple of weeks. Make kugel in batches for 6 weeks.. Who says shabbos cooking should be left for Thursday nite??

Also, What about doing a really deep cleaning on Sundays with the kids? You could do the cholent Thursday nite and prepare the chicken and fish to be made on Friday. Even better, make the fish on Sunday and freeze for Shabbos... That's what I am doing next Sunday. I already have this weeks fish already baked in the freezer.

I do believe that the boys should help but there is no reason why they can't be learning Thursday nite.. Tell them to take their shabbos showers the minute they get home or first thing when they wake up on Friday or the minute they walk in the door on Friday..

Maybe you should read a book called ,It's about time, also look at jewishlifeorganized.com, The idiot's guide for time management, and The idiot's guide to an organized life. oh and try flylady.net..

Also, my boys at age 5 and 6 know that right after they get into pj's they put their clothes into the washing machine.. and to bring their plates to the sink.....

Each person can do 20 min of straightening up each nite and a bit extra for shabbos.

The goal here is to raise a home that is Machshiv Torah.. As a mother who works full time, I learn to just work with the time I have and deal with it.. and no I do not have cleaning help.
I might only have 3 kids but they could be quite a handful sometimes

Also, in my book, I would rather make a truly simple shabbos or even buy takeout if need be if that means that my sons and husband would get a chance for more learning....

zaq

Mon, Dec 15 2008, 9:02 pm

Thank you creativemommy for your thoughtful post. However, I do not need an idiot's or even a genius's guide to time management. I could probably give YOU a few pointers. Yes, I have been to the jewish flylady site and to my surprise found nothing new that I could use because I am already quite organized, thank you. Seriously, I looked at the site, ignored the sections on potchkerei that I would never bother with, like creating centerpieces out of stacks of glassware and developing "themes" for my table, and found nothing in the way of organization that I could apply to my household that I wasn't already doing. My routine is stripped down to basics. Maybe not quite as basic as when I had 4 kids under 4, but pretty basic. I now have the luxury of baking cake every few weeks. when I had 4 under 4, it was Stella d'Oro streimel cookies or nothing.

However, my time management skills or lack thereof are not the issue. I'm not griping that I can't get my house clean without my children's help, since g-d willing when they all move out I'll have no choice but to go it alone. I'm griping that the yeshiva system with its excessive hours is creating a situation in which it is impossible for boys to do their rightful share of housework. I consider this bad chinuch. Clearly your values and mine are somewhat divergent. I consider contributing to the housework to be as important as learning. I see too many guys who use learning as an excuse to escape from their responsibilities at home. who wouldn't want to be sitting in the BM with his buddies when at home there is laundry and cleaning and dirty diapers to change? much as I may admire women who are willing to slave away so that their hubbies can sit and learn, I didn't choose that path for myself and don't want that path for my children.

FYI my children most certainly do help around the house, I wouldn't have it any other way. But they actually did more around the house when they were younger because they didn't have night seder and had school on sunday only till 12. Deep clean on sunday? when they leave home at 7 for minyan and don't get home till close to 4--that is, if they're not helping a classmate who needs extra review of a sugyah? I don't think so! They're lucky if they manage to do their laundry sunday afternoon. and you know, sometimes we want them to do other things on sunday afternoons, like visit their grandparents who are in nursing homes, or even, perish the thought, spend some time outdoors getting fresh air and exercise. are you aware that yeshiva bocherim have only about half the bone density of non-yeshiva males the same age? This has distressing implications for their present and future health and well-being. And we have the emergency room bills for broken bones to bear this out. Sitting on their duffs bent over books all day every day is NOT HEALTHY. It is said that learning Torah saps a man's physical strength. Some may view this as a good thing; I beg to differ. venishmartem me'od lenafshoseichem is a mitzvas asei.

On a regular weekday, my sons leave home at 7, come home at 6.30 for supper, go back for night seder at about 7.30 and don't come back till 11.00 the earliest. sometimes as late as midnight. that's every night of the week, and thursday night is even later. I'm not even addressing the issue that young people this age actually need 9-10 hours of sleep and are getting no more than 6, which is a whole nother issue. see above about venishmaryem me'od lenafshoseichem.

if you'd ever lived with a young man between the ages of about 13 and 25, you would know that taking a shower friday morning is NOT GOING TO DO IT for shabbos. even in winter. sorry, even I don't feel clean on shabbos if I've only taken a shower friday morning. my friday afternoon shower is brief, but I'm not giving it up, nor is anyone else in our household.

fox, I seem to have hijacked your thread, for which I apologize, but digressions and tangents are inevitable in a forum of this nature. btw, I really like your threadtitle.

Fox

Tue, Dec 16 2008, 4:03 pm

I'll be very honest:

Fifteen years ago . . . ten years ago . . . even five years ago . . . I was able to compensate for the demands on my time by employing every time management trick known to mankind. Not only have I read all the Jewish time management systems, I've used them in conjunction with some of the famous non-Jewish systems.

But now I'm 48 years old, and frankly, I don't have the energy to work a demanding job all day, handle most family responsibilities, and then come home to a second (third?) shift. I'll admit that part of that is my own fault. I'm not in very good shape, and that obviously has an impact on my energy level. Also, I'll admit that neither I, my DH, nor our kids are particularly neat and tidy. Nevertheless, I hear similar complaints from friends and acquaintances who are in good shape and who are naturally tidy people. When you reach a certain point in middle age, all the time management strategies in the world don't compensate for the changes in your body.

Had I read my own post 15 years ago, I might have said that this woman needs to stop procrastinating and get moving. But frankly, I am at a point in my life where working 18 hour days, 6 days a week is just not going to happen. And Shabbos, while not a full day of work, is certainly no "day off" in any sense.

So while I'm not against time management per se, simply being more organized doesn't turn a 48-year-old into a 35-year-old, and if anyone believes that there's no difference . . . well, just wait!

creativemommyto3

Tue, Dec 16 2008, 4:23 pm

zaq wrote:

1. my dh isn't in kollel, but his kovea itim is precious.
2. Why do kids have to do so much in the house? If they are doing all the housework, what are you doing?

amother

Tue, Dec 16 2008, 4:36 pm

zaq wrote:

creativemommyto3 wrote:

1. my dh isn't in kollel, but his kovea itim is precious.
2. Why do kids have to do so much in the house? If they are doing all the housework, what are you doing?

1. Did I say your dh is in kollel? show me where? fgrankly, I don't give two figs what your household arrangements are, if you're happy with them, jolly good for you. You're not the one railing against the yeshiva system; I am.

2. Creativemommy, you really are creative in more ways than one. You've created for yourself a whole scenario of my household in which you are assuming my kids do all the housework. for all you know, I may ch"v be disabled or caring for a disabled child and therefore NEED my kids to do all the housework. B"H that's not the case and in reality, I sit around watching soap operas and eating bonbons all day. Kids are made to serve their parents and I had them for the very purpose of having free household slaves, I mean help. when they get married I'll be in trouble b/c I'll have to hire help.

[b]

The bolded words here.. say it all..

creativemommyto3

Tue, Dec 16 2008, 4:55 pm

zaq wrote:

creativemommyto3 wrote:

1. my dh isn't in kollel, but his kovea itim is precious.
2. Why do kids have to do so much in the house? If they are doing all the housework, what are you doing?

It's a very hard call to make b/c in reality, it really isn't your other kids problem that you have so much housework to do.. They don't have to do it all Thursday nite.. Kids should have responsibilites but they shouldn't be having no life b/c of it. Take it from someone who used to cook the entire shabbos for my mother every week.. she picked what she knew I loved while my brother vacuumed.. but you can't load up your chores on your kids.