furious at inlaws continued...

Barbara

Thu, Jul 10 2014, 11:56 am

amother wrote:

op here...I do live in the 5 towns. My in laws never helped us financially with the exception of in our shana rishona gave money towards health insurance after begging for it. My husband stopped after a year bec. rather than giving post dated checks, he would make my husband beg for it each month which always involved some reason to come back tomorrow, or why am I doing this. it was a major begfest and degrading. I guess we can go back and forth on this forever. When I used the word obligated, it was a bad choice of words. Simply put, It is very difficult these days to support a family. As several people on this thread suggested., even making 300k a year is not that much. With that in mind who should children turn to for financial help? My son would like to take swimming lessons, my daughter would like to take piano lessons, my inlaws know this and would never even consider helping. Maybe if my husband gets down on his knees and begs they might give something towards that. And again they are very comfortable with very few expenses at this point in their lives.

OP, you've already told us that you have a 7 or 8 year old.

In 15 years, are you going to have enough money to give that child a down payment on a house in the 5 towns -- $250,000 or so at least -- and to give them a few hundred in extras a few times a year?

Don't forget that you'll need to give the same to all of your kids. Are you saving so that you will have $1m in disposable assets to give to your kids in 20 years? Plus weddings and making the respective bris.

How will you feel if your DIL posts that you are a lowlife for not coming up with that kind of money?

Perhaps you should temper your expectations. There are less expensive communities in the New York area than the 5 towns. Perhaps if you moved to one of those communities, you could afford a house, or at least a bigger apartment. And you could also afford more extras for the kids.

Additionally, you and your husband need to sit down and budget. If you cannot afford the things that you want on your salaries, you need to figure out how to make more money, or you need to reduce your expectations.

SRS

Thu, Jul 10 2014, 11:56 am

amother wrote:

Let me give you advice:

Get out of the 5 Towns. You can't keep up with the neighbors and need to be in a place where you can feel a bit average.

Families should be able to support their own family. If they cannot, it is time to figure out how you can do that. If you cannot afford a few sessions of swimming lessons, your other expenses are too high. Once again, relocation might be a solution.

At first you were upset about lack of downpayment. Now you are expecting piano and swimming lessons. I am guessing the lack of generosity is tied to life experience and you are one of the exhibits. I am not at all opposed to helping children through college, through grad school, or event with a downpayment. But the idea of giving this type of monetary help is to help a child become INDEPENDENT and now it is about lack of help for swimming and piano lessons.

We still have almost no information on your husband and what his approach is and why his family has come to the conclusions they have come to. I'm guessing that the support given during "shana rishona" WAS your downpayment support and they are wondering how it is that 8 years of marriage later, you have not stepped out and made something happen for yourselves somewhere. Believe it or not, there are families that gift AFTER their children have made the big purchase.

Last edited by SRS on Thu, Jul 10 2014, 12:03 pm; edited 1 time in total

self-actualization

Thu, Jul 10 2014, 12:02 pm

The OP is not a bad person. She might be surrounded by people who have each side give half the down payment. That might be the norm for comfortable families in the Five Towns (and I actually think that I have heard of this, even though I have come nowhere near to experiencing it firsthand Smile

). Once the down payment is taken care of, in some cases the mortgage can be equivalent to rent, and you've locked in a fixed cost instead of having your housing costs rise with inflation. Who knows why the FIL doesn't want to pitch in - there can be a million reasons. If "everyone" else is doing it, though, then the OP has the right to feel confused.

freidasima

Thu, Jul 10 2014, 12:14 pm

Gevalt, These stories are turning my stomach.

Sorry I got confused, from all the "amothers' posting here I mixed up the op and the amother who mentioned $30,000.

Yeah my kids are great, and my parents were great and I guess we aren't so bad either.

I also think that the situation in EY is very different than abroad. Here it really has been the norm for three generations that parents give children the downpayment to their apartments because there is absolutely no way for a kid who is getting married even at an older age (let's say 30) to have enough for a downpayment. Remember here you need upwards of 60% of your apartment price as a downpayment and as kids go to the army and only then school, your average 30 year old who has been through hesder has only been working for three years. And in those three years, even if he saves every penny of his salary and lives at home, chances are that he can maybe save up what? Gurnicht...

amother

Thu, Jul 10 2014, 12:15 pm

self-actualization wrote:

I don't know if the OP is a bad person or not. I know that she's said nasty things about her FIL because he won't finance the things that she wants.

There are probably times when a mortgage payment is close to rent. But in the Five Towns? Let's say she's looking at a $1.3m house, because I doubt that there's a $300,000 one in that area. Mortgage payment with property taxes is about $6200 per month. Are people really paying that in rent? And can someone who can't afford a few swim lessons (lifeguards usually supplement their incomes by giving them at $15, at least accordig to the lifeguards I was chatting with last weekend, but let's even say an outrageous $45 a piece, 6 lessons, $270) going to be able to come up with that kind of money every month?

suzyq

Thu, Jul 10 2014, 12:19 pm

amother wrote:

Wow. How does ANYONE live there?

amother

Thu, Jul 10 2014, 12:31 pm

suzyq wrote:

Wow. How does ANYONE live there?

Shrug. They make a lot of money. I know lots of people who live in $2m and $3m homes. They're entrepreneurs or professionals who make a lot of money, and who saved. They didn't buy those homes when they were just starting out.

But that's a $1 million mortgage.

I forgot about Cedarhurst, which someone mentioned, and is much less expensive.

Running it again, $1.3m house, $300,000 down, gives you p&I $4783, taxes $1300, insurance $67.

A more modest $650,000 in Cedarhurst would run you $3204 a month.

I'm just not getting that anyone who is struggling to pay a couple of hundred dollars for swimming lessons could swing that. But, of course, I don't know.

I also randomly chose a piano school in Manhattan. It wants just north of $1000 for one hour per week, 15 weeks. So about $75 a week. Steep. So no comments.

self-actualization

Thu, Jul 10 2014, 12:45 pm

Let's say you are paying $2400 a month to rent a 3 bedroom apartment in a 2-family house. Then you take the plunge to the $650k house based on your numbers. All of the mortgage interest is tax deductible, as are the property taxes. So you can adjust your tax withholding and come away with more income per month that helps to pay for the house.

I'm not saying that these are sane numbers, but I am making the argument that in many neighborhoods, the rent comes out to equal the mortgage payment once you get the tax deductions. And you lock in your housing costs, and never need to fear being kicked out by a landlord.

In the OP's case, with only 1 member of the couple possibly earning significant money, it's going to be a challenge to pay those sums monthly in addition to tuition, without parental help. I would suggest buying a house that is cheaper than $650k. I would also suggest running the numbers over and over again with a mortgage broker and/or real estate professional so that you are fully prepared. Worst case scenario you can move to a lower cost neighborhood.

amother

Thu, Jul 10 2014, 12:49 pm

op here, its odd hearing the suggestion" don't get upset bec. it wont help". Obviously that's true. However, emotions TO SOME EXTENT r difficult to control. I can tell u if somebody would spit in ur face or call u a name in the street, not to get upset. Easier said than done. Also, for the last few years I have dealt with it without getting to upset. Its just that we r in the parsha now and if my FIL would help us we possibly could get it done. As far as my husband goes, he is an extremely mild mannered person who avoids machlokes at all costs. I can honestly say I have never seen my husband lose his temper or get very angry since we got married. He is also used to his fathers attitude having grown up in his house and always seeing his father treat others better than his own family. My husband borderline hates his father but to his face is always respectful. I guess that's his kibud av. Lastly, This really isn't a 5 towns issue. I would LOVE to purchase a house that frankly, the snobby people in the neighborhood would make more fun of then the respectful (but small!) apartment I live in now. My rent and mortgage payment would be around the same.

Chayalle

Thu, Jul 10 2014, 12:58 pm

It's true that emotions and feelings are hard to control. But they are driven by our thoughts, and those we CAN control.

It's hard work but if you work at thinking differently, you will feel differently. So thinking about how your FIL could help you but won't, will just lead to your blood pressure rising and your emotions going out of control. You can change these thoughts to more positive ones, that Hashem will give you what He thinks you need, and that you can manage with that, and that your FIL is not in control of your lives...that you can manage without the things you would like, and that maybe you can find areas in which to judge your FIL more favorably, or at least pity him.

Once you think these thoughts, you will feel better as the resentment and anger slowly recedes and fades away.

amother

Thu, Jul 10 2014, 12:59 pm

amother wrote:

Then why did you start this thread? And the one before it?
Dozens of imamothers have tried to help you, and you keep posting variations of the same thing. You believing they *should* give you money (whether because they're obligated, or just lowlives if they don't), isn't going to make them give you money.
Even if all of us agreed that they *should* give you money, it wouldn't make them give you money.
This is the way they are. You have to find a way to learn to live with it. Repeating over and over how wrong they are won't get you close to that goal.

SRS

Thu, Jul 10 2014, 1:02 pm

amother wrote:

Its just that we r in the parsha now and if my FIL would help us we possibly could get it done.

amother wrote:

As far as my husband goes, he is an extremely mild mannered person who avoids machlokes at all costs. I can honestly say I have never seen my husband lose his temper or get very angry since we got married. He is also used to his fathers attitude having grown up in his house and always seeing his father treat others better than his own family. My husband borderline hates his father but to his face is always respectful. I guess that's his kibud av.

You can get it done AND kill two birds with one stone. They don't control you. They aren't contributing the funds to control you. You can move to a more affordable community and will not be closeby to drive them and have to interact regularly.

Get yourself to West Hempstead, or Plainview (I think they have a downpayment program sponsored by shul machers that I read about once), or Queens. There are so many neighborhoods that are more affordable.

After 8 years of marriage, I'm not sure why you are still waiting for "Prince FIL Charming." He doesn't exist, just like my Fairy Godmother-in-law/Mother that picks up groceries and comes over to babysit and take the kids on outings does not exist.

mummiedearest

Thu, Jul 10 2014, 1:04 pm

shoshanim999 wrote:

op here again.... My husband has 2 younger siblings. One unfortunately is completely off the derech and lives out of state and has almost nothing to do with the family and he has a sister in high school. I'm not sure what to make of people responding that 300k a year is really not alot of money. The reality is that b'h families r larger than ever. It would be hard to put a % on it, but I'm estimating that less than 10% of kids today will earn over 300k per year regularly. With that in mind its even more incumbent on parents and maybe even relatives who r well to do to help their children. What is the next generation going to do if 300k a year is "not that much"? Imagine a couple with a few kids earning $125k a year. Well from the responses, it would seem that they would be poverty stricken. How can parents that r clearly well off not help? Its beyond me. My sons rosh yeshiva gave rebbe positions in his yeshiva to several of his sons. Do u think they were really the most qualified? Did they really have the best resumes? Of course not! The rosh yeshiva took care of his kids and hired his sons and put the resumes of the other hundred applicants back in the drawer. (BTW, my son was fortunate to be in the rosh yeshiva's sons class and had a great year.) I work in a daycare. The director hired a whole bunch of her nieces and her only daughter. Again, were they really the most qualified? I work there so I can definitely say no. She obviously hired them bec. she was helping out her family.

I think that parents are obligated to emphasize the importance of preparation for a well-paying career and living within your means. I don't think that we all have to plan to help our children financially. there are fields out there that our children will be able to make a lot of money in. honestly, I think the best financial help we can give our kids is helping with college tuition if necessary. we need to make sure our kids have the ability to get a good job. and we need to make sure our kids know not to have more kids than they can handle, emotionally, physically, and financially.

and op, keep in mind that spouses can work too.

dh and I discussed our plan for helping our children ages ago. (yes, our kids are still young.) we agreed that we will insist on our kids learning some sort of trade. our kids are welcome to a kollel lifestyle if they want it, but they have to be prepared for a job first, and they have to expect no support from us. I'm sure we'd give them occasional gifts, but adults need to support themselves. (by gifts, I mean a new lands' end winter coat or some such.) and if they are desperate for food/rent, we'd help. but we have our own plans, and those will require money. and those plans are.... KOLLEL! we couldn't do kollel for more than a few (part time) months in the beginning of marriage. dh took off from work for that time. but he loved it, and we both want to be able to spend our later years in such a manner. and we'd like to be able to take some vacations together while we're at it. we're not going to make sure our kids own houses before we do these things. and we might pay for grandkids' music lessons, but only a limited number of them. music lessons are a long-term investment if your kid is really interested. and what if we pay for the lessons and the parents don't make the kid practice? food for thought, there.

freidasima

Thu, Jul 10 2014, 1:18 pm

Something I seem to be missing here. Is the op living in 5 towns and wants to buy THERE?
Gevalt.
Maybe try something you can manage?
When I talk about getting my kids downpayments for apartments I am talking about small two bedroom apartments in the cheaper neighborhoods of Yerushalayim and that's only because they already have two and three kids and iy"h will have more.
Five TOWNS? Isn't that like richland gan eden?
Op - time to come down from the ceiling and hit the floor with both feet.
If your in laws won't give and you have spoken to them and they still won't give leave it alone.
Decide to work as hard as you can and make as much money as you can so that you can help your kids as much as you like.
Otherwise, as people pointed out you have already posted two threads on your in laws. We all got the picture. They are awful and you are wonderful right?
Skip it. Doen't make a difference what they are.
It now begins with you. One day unless they cut your husband out of their will he will inherit a lot of money right?
So already decide that you won't touch a cent of that money and will put it all away for your kids so that they will say how wonderful and generous you are.
But know that it means that You will sacrifice. For your kids. So that they will say you are the most generous parents in the world.
My husband and I live a really simple life compared to what we could with our earnings davka so that we can give to our kids and grandchildren. THAT is our real life...we need and want that more. But our kids are tremendously (did I already say TREMENDOUSLY?!) grateful to us and know what we give up for them and they shower us with love.
If you want your kids to think that of you, already decide to work hard and help your kids with everything you have!
Hatzlocho!

amother

Thu, Jul 10 2014, 2:04 pm

op here, I'm not sure where the $650k starter house came from. That's a huge exaggeration. Go to zillow.com and u will see plenty of starter house in cedarhurst where the asking price is below $500k and can be bought in the low $400's if not lower. Also, my parents are the sweetest, kindest most generous people a child can ever ask for. They r also middle class at best. They told me when I'm ready to buy they will try to help with something. I figure it will be around $5000 and I (and my DH) will appreciate their generosity. My resentment towards my FIL stems from the simple fact that parents should help their kids when they can. He is a big giver/helper to 100 different causes. His family-out of luck. And again, I wouldnt THINK of asking him for the entire down payment, just some help.

SRS

Thu, Jul 10 2014, 2:12 pm

Happy18 wrote:

Op just curious, are your parents going to be giving you the same amount of money for a down payment? If they aren't how does your dh feel about your expectations on his parents?

In the spirit of training your thoughts, Happy18 brings up something important in considering how different people deal with money and distributing. There are parents who believe that when contributing it should be shared culture where each side gives. I don't happen to share this culture per se and believe that if parents choose to give, they should just give and stop worrying about tit-for-tat on the other side. I also don't like to tie giving to buying a home or marriage, but that is my take on being "fair."

But, do understand because the lives of more wealthy people different than the lives of the just-comfortable. Amongst the more wealthy, there is a lot of concern with keeping money close. Homes might be held in trusts. Money might be held closely in businesses and not as individual or joint property. And there is a tremendous amount of worry that a spouse (dil or sil) will come in, marry for the money, and walk off with a lot of it a few years later. This is why even financial gurus like Dave Ramsey that do not believe in prenups are favorable for professional athletes and the like. Given the tremendous amount of emphasis on money/funds in the Orthodox community, I think we have a parallel.

So giving money becomes something larger and sometimes the wealthier side wants to share responsibility with the other side as a show of trust and shared culture. I get the impression that your family has feelings about how money should be shared, but doesn't particularly have what to walk the walk with (you mentioned your father calling your FIL to discuss contributing to this bris. . . I think if your family had the money they might have just written you a check for some of the bris expenses or wrote you a 1K check for the child's college savings account without any interaction with the other side). If you did not marry within a similar socioeconomic class, this might be an area of concern for your FIL when it comes to opening up his wallet should he actually be so inclined.

Basically, your FIL's relationship to money has its own interesting history I'm certain and you really need to build your own life independent of them.