S/o cancelled concert..

TranquilityAndPeace

Tue, Apr 16 2019, 5:48 am

DVOM wrote:

What explanation did they give for not allowing it? I'm curious to understand the thought process.

They said the boys would stay up too late if they had the ping pong table in the dorm. IIRC, my son and some friends shlepped it into the dorm without asking permission, and then had to shlep it to be picked up by bulk trash.

I was so annoyed!!!! The only outlet that Yeshiva allowed was a basketball hoop in the middle of their parking lot. My son doesn't like basketball. There were so many rules in that place, all in the name of Torah. The kids were not allowed to walk into a nearby pizza store, ever.

My son is creative and was bored, even though this Yeshiva learned at a top level. We asked the Rosh Yeshiva if he could give nearby 11 and 12 year old kids bar mitzvah lessons. He did that once for a Rebbi's son, and felt so accomplished and made money, all in a Kosher way. The Rosh Yeshiva said no, even though my son wouldn't miss any class time, because it would disturb the atmosphere of the Yeshiva. That's when we pulled him out of that atmosphere.

Mommyg8

Tue, Apr 16 2019, 5:50 am

TranquilityAndPeace wrote:

Doesn't sound like a yeshivah I would want to send my sons to! Can I pm you for the name?

thunderstorm

Tue, Apr 16 2019, 6:15 am

TranquilityAndPeace wrote:

I am raising 3 yeshivish teens, and the lack of outlets is a huge problem.

We sent them to 3 different high schools for various reasons.

The son in the most yeshivish high school found a ping pong table that a neighbor of the Yeshiva was throwing out, and the boys wanted to bring it into the dorm, but the hanhala didn't let. He left that Yeshiva and is now in a small Yeshiva where he goes to Jitsu classes in the evening in Lakewood.

One of my other sons binds books and seforim as a hobby and business.

My other son learns and learns; however not every boy can do that, and the yeshivish system is geared towards those who can.

The lack of outlets is a serious problem for yehshivish Boys.

We are raising ALL of our boys the way 1-3 of the best boys PER TOWN were raised in Europe. The rest helped with the family business and learned part time. Only the ones who were geniuses were sent to Yeshiva full time as teens.

This is interesting one of my DSs is in a very RW yeshivish yeshiva and they are very not flexible but one thing they did do was put in 3 ping pong tables in a room they call the "game room" in the new yeshiva building.

TranquilityAndPeace

Tue, Apr 16 2019, 6:21 am

Mommyg8 wrote:

Doesn't sound like a yeshivah I would want to send my sons to! Can I pm you for the name?

Sure, if it's l'toeles.

I'm thinking more about this.

My son who learns a lot just turned 20. He's at the top of his class in a small wonderful Yeshiva. If he keeps this up, he can become a posek, a Rav, a Rosh Yeshiva.

However, if he'd been in a system where Yeshiva ended at 5pm, it's doubtful he would have reached this high level of learning.

Which makes me just reiterate my point. We're raising all these kids to have the schedule and mindset and hobbies of future gedolim, even though a very small percentage actually will.

Is this the correct approach for the other 99% of Yeshiva boys, who probably crave outlets and downtime?

Never mind that the MOST possible sleep my 20 year old in Bais medrash can get is 6 hours and 25 minutes per night, keeping to the group's schedule. Sometimes an hour nap on Shabbos. But I guess this is another story for another thread.

PS the marital arts class my other son takes in Lakewood is @alufmma on Instagram. I've been impressed with the owner and my son's experience there.

dancingqueen

Tue, Apr 16 2019, 6:22 am

Mommyg8 wrote:

Maybe they exist, but not in Lakewood.

I do think, though, that 9 to 5 is a bit too short. Most schools start at 7:30 to 7:45 for davening - which makes sense. It doesn't seem to make sense to start davening at 9:00. As for finishing at 5:00 - I don't know how old your sons are, but I remember that when my sons were in seventh and eight grade, they came home at around 5:00 and they had so much free time that I was - almost - literally tearing my hair out. For some reason the Rebbeim/teachers have given up on homework at this point (honestly, I think it's a non-issue because only one of my boys actually did homework without serious bribery) and they had WAAY to much free time. At least that's what I thought.

Add in a couple of extracurricular activities-sports, clubs and activities, learning or other seminar nights, the requisite commute plus homework/studying....these kids aren’t sitting around staring at the wall by any means.

amother

Scarlet

Tue, Apr 16 2019, 6:22 am

My son is in 9th grade in a mesivta in Lakewood. He leaves at 7am and comes home at 9:15pm. Sounds crazy BUT he has a TON of down time during the day in between sidarim. His yeshiva has a full fledged gym plus outdoor courts. He is also allowed to leave yeshiva once or twice a week and walk to the nearest shopping center. It is not learning learning for 14 hours. The idea is that it’s like a dorm experience but the boys go home to sleep at night. He comes home happy and invigorated.

I’ll be honest, when this same son was in 8th grade and was home every day at 6 he was bored bored bored. He would pick fights with younger kids who were annoying him and just make things at home very tense.

I am grateful for his new schedule- he comes home to a quiet house, the little ones that can be annoying to home are sleeping peacefully and he gets my undivided attention.

Just thought I’d put this out there!

thunderstorm

Tue, Apr 16 2019, 6:34 am

aricelli wrote:

I love hobbies. My children are quite artistic and they’ve gotten lessons in the areas of their choice. Now that my boys are big though when exactly are they meant to be pursuing these hobbies? At night when they come home exhausted? When they know they need to go to sleep so that they can get up early morn for another grueling day? Somehow the joy has gone out of what once once their passion. Yesterday, for the first time in eons my son completed a beautiful drawing. I nearly cried when I remembered how he loves to draw and how rarely he finds time for this outlet.

I do find that their schedules don't give them time to focus on their hobbies. But also when Bein Hazmanim comes around they don't focus on it too much either. They sit around moping and bored and arguing with each other. They help somewhat but they want to "do" things. And when they can't "do" things and "go" places they start getting grouchy.
One of my sons is willing to walk an hour each way just to buy one item so that he could just "go" somewhere. They hate the cooped up nothing to do feeling. They don't count helping around the house as "doing things" it doesn't fill their void.

Seashell

Tue, Apr 16 2019, 6:46 am

DVOM wrote:

We put this question to our Rabbi about a year ago. The catalyst for the question was a bit different: I'm raising 4 boys in Lakewood, oldest is almost 11. In my kids' school, I'd say about half the kids have access to some sort of entertainment system (ds, Xbox, Wii, ps4, or an ipad or computer they are allowed to use) and our oldest started petitioning to get one as well. We both really dislike screen-based entertainment, not so much for religous reasons, more because we don't think it's great for thier development.

What we've been trying to do is give our kids exposure to many different outlets, and helping them develop hobbies they really enjoy. The aim is to give them something to fill the void that so many people are describing: nothing to do with time off, a)because they never have any and are so unused to it and b)because there is no 'kosher' entertainment. Well, my little boys have time off now, at this age, and we are using that time to help them find things they are interested in and passionate about that are productive, fun, and positive.

We are investing quite a bit of money and time on these hobbies, and some of them are really sticking. My oldest (the one who wanted the gaming system) got really interested in the technical/science side of electronics and engineering. We snap up any old motor-based toy that we can find from flea markets and he has been taking them apart and soldering them together and making the coolest things. He and my husband worked all year on making him a Tetris electronic game, from scratch. I have no idea about technicalities, but they spent long hours with wires and motherboards and a sodoring iron and they did it. Next he would like to build a motor to power his bike; they are in the planning stages on that one. We also subscribed to Kiwicrates for him; they send a STEM project once a month. It's expensive, and he has been paying for (most of) it himself, with money he's saves up. He loves the kits, actually, all my boys are enjoying the things he makes. Another one of my boys has always been particularly artistic; he's little still, but we are providing him with high-quality art supplies and will (hopefully!) find him lessons soon. All of my kids actually love art, and we do a lot of painting and drawing and creating. Some of my boys enjoy athletics; we are encouraging that too. We also found and dragged home a huge electronic organ (very long story, we found it in a dumpster and took a chance that it would work. There are a few stuck keys, but most of it works great!) hoping someone would develop an interest in playing. So far no one is showing more than cursory interest, so we'll be getting rid of it soon.

The 'Chaos' thread touched a nerve for me too. It's a strange town we're raising our kids in. The high school schedules sound insane to me. I'm not sure what we'll do at that point. For now though, we're focusing on developing and nurturing thier curiosity and creativity.

Can’t like this enough!!!

amother

Mint

Tue, Apr 16 2019, 6:59 am

TranquilityAndPeace wrote:

Just throwing in that there are boys who do not seem to be iluyim but who also thrive on this schedule. They love learning and davening, and are in yeshivos that respect these boys too. I don't know where he'll end up one day, but it's not just the 1% who are clearly going to be something who are benefiting. He runs, will watch some music videos on our very filtered home pc and is doing ok. I know that we are very lucky.

I just wish that boys could still feel like good boys even if they can't stick with this schedule. And I definitely want more options for outlets. I think my son's yeshiva is pretty good about allowing kids what they need for hobbies, within reason. One guy has a treadmill, another sets up simchos, another gives haircuts, that kind of thing.

aricelli

Tue, Apr 16 2019, 7:10 am

thunderstorm wrote:

Its very hard to revive a hobby once a year if theres no time to maintain during the year. Also, their passion for it just fizzles out

Chayalle

Tue, Apr 16 2019, 8:30 am

DVOM wrote:

We also found and dragged home a huge electronic organ (very long story, we found it in a dumpster and took a chance that it would work. There are a few stuck keys, but most of it works great!) hoping someone would develop an interest in playing. So far no one is showing more than cursory interest, so we'll be getting rid of it soon.

Just want to say, first of all, that I think you are awesome.

Also, don't throw in the towel on that organ just yet (though I'd recommend a piano, more than an organ, personally.) Your kids are still young.

My girls barely showed an interest in the piano till they were in upper elementary school (more like 7th or 8th grade). At around that time my oldest got into it, and sometime later my next one followed. I gave them a few easy music books with songs they can sing (like D'veykus songbooks, and there'a a series available at the local Judaica that has lots of popular scores) plus some pointers, and they took off. Gradually I introduced theory, chords, etc..and both my big girls play beautifully (they also play by ear, and can write their own scores for whatever they feel like playing...)

My 11 year old doesn't play yet, but I'm guessing that with the exposure she gets in my house, it's only a matter of time....

naturalmom5

Tue, Apr 16 2019, 9:38 am

DVOM wrote:

If I was designing a perfect boys high school, it would be on a 9:00am to 5:00pm schedule. Perhaps one or two evenings a week the boys could go back to school from 8-10pm for some sort of extra learning, but it would be OPTIONAL. There would be other OPTIONAL classes held at that time too: photography, STEM, art, karate, sports teams, gardening, cooking, small business coaching, whatever. There would be a regular secular studies curriculum. I don't care if it's basic and short (2.5 hours a day of language arts, math, science, history) but I'd want it taught well and taken seriously. School would be in session until perhaps two days before Pesach.

Do schools like this exist?

Lol...
You are basically describing TABC

Chayalle

Tue, Apr 16 2019, 10:06 am

amother [ OP ] wrote:

I have a house full of boys kah with the oldest almost 12. This whole story really got me thinking.... what are boys supposed to be doing bein Hazmanim. Yes, they will learn and help and eat but how should they “chill”. They do work so hard and they do need outlets. I keep thinking that in a few years I will have a few teenage boys hanging around and I keep envisioning what happened last night and reading your responses on that other thread I see it’s a major challenge.
So, to those of you there , how do you give your teenage boys that proper balance and help them feel content so that they dont need to be wandering the streets, hitching from one side of town to the other in search of entertainment... it s really scaring me...

I think several posters have weighed in on developing hobbies that will hold your sons' interests.

This post had me thinking of my own brothers. My older brother was the quiet, studious dream yeshiva boy who never put a toe out of line, set up a schedule with Chavrusahs even during Bein Hazmanim, etc...

My next brother is quite a few years younger than big brother (with a couple of sisters between). He was big brother's polar opposite. I think my parents had the shock of their lives and didn't know what to make of him. I remember him dancing on the table. He had enough energy for five kids. He also had golden hands, and I remember him re-upholstering all of my mother's kitchen chairs one bein hazmanim; putting in a new storm door; building a shed in the backyard, and a treehouse, etc....He's the kid who helped my mother clean and kasher her kitchen, though he probably felt alot of angst for not being the shining star his older brother was, with not the "zitchfleish" to spend all Bein Hazmanim learning.....

When he got married and moved to E"Y, a wealthy neighbor didn't like the standard kitchen cabinets that came with their Dirah and was changing all of them, so he took them down and installed the extra cabinets in his own kitchen, giving my SIL a ton of extra storage space and a much nicer kitchen. With all the upgrades he made in their apartment, they were eventually able to sell at quite a profit and move into a much larger dirah. The son that gave my parents grey hairs has eight children B"AH and is a very hands-on father and husband. He also does nicely with various properties he manages and some real estate.....BTW, he learns plenty too and takes tests on a monthly basis and is going for Semicha....

I think what jumps at me is that our school systems don't seem to allow alot of wiggle room for individuality. Chanoch L'naar al pi darko is often forgotten, and we think only an illui (for whom our systems work) is successful. I look around and I don't necessarily see those kids who did so well in school shining brighter as an adult. And sometimes the kid that seemed to barely make it is very successful later on. Some kids are later bloomers, including scholastically.

We need to let kids show us the areas where they can be successful, and let them build on it.

amother

Bronze

Tue, Apr 16 2019, 10:21 am

amother [ Scarlet ] wrote:

What's the name of your son's yeshivah? Looking into all our Lakewood options for next year.

sky

Tue, Apr 16 2019, 10:51 am

DVOM wrote:

This sounds amazing.
In our neighborhood screen time is not an issue. So my kids don’t struggle with that.
they spend an insane amount of time outside building contraptions with the neighbors.

I’d love to hear more about the stem activities.
What did you start with?
Do they need a computer?
My son got a circuit kit he just loved but it was so basic . I could see them really going for this.