Speak no Evil | Imamother

HelloG

Thu, Dec 30 2021, 8:30 pm

OOT wrote:

First let me say what this statement is NOT:
It is NOT to ever justify any type of abuse under any circumstances.
It is NOT to minimize the devastating effects of abuse.
It is NOT to encourage victims of abuse to keep quiet or shove things under the rug.

What is it?
An innocent question… what do you, a member of Klal yisroel, gain by speaking about other peoples private business, even when that business is (possibly) horrific behaviors?
Again- I’m not taking about alleged victims of abuse, or those that need to be protected from possible abuse. I’m talking about the rest of us who were not personally at risk of being harmed.

What is my agenda here?
I’ve had the un- lovely experience of being a victim of a smear campaign by members of my inner circle. I know firsthand the pain or being talked about by the public and judged by people who have not a clue as to what really happened. I can relate to the devastation and destruction of lives ( and I’m not being dramatic over here, I mean it for real) that happens when people mind business that is not theirs to mind.

So I ask you- and not antagonistically- I would really like to understand- what do YOU gain by talking about other people?

I kept searching and searching the threads trying to see if there is anyone who thinks like me. if there is anyone leaving any place for doubt at least... I am so glad you said it better than I could have. I can't identify cuz haven't been smeared bH but you phrased it well

I also wanted to say, my husband was telling the story about a little boy who went to the grocery with his father's expensive coin and on the way it was exchanged by someone for a cheaper coin... the father blamed the grocer for stealing and selling a candy to his son for an expensive coin. the entire town was divided and fighting... I don't remember if the story was with a tzaddik or it was just repeated by a tzaddik. maybe someone can help, it would definitely make the point if it was with better details. whoever it was, was saying that the father wasn't to blame because he was convinced he's right and was in so much pain. the grocer for sure wasn't to blame. the guy who stole was desperate and didn't know it will cause so much damage. but ALL THE PEOPLE IN THE TOWN who took sides and slandered and spoke badly... they're have to give din vcheshbon for that...

I know about abuse btw... I don't think anyone is too foreign to it today's days. so if anyone wants to blame me for being innocent I am just putting it out there...

Genius

Thu, Dec 30 2021, 8:57 pm

HelloG wrote:

There are some people who have doubts about the necessity of the worldwide smear campaign before there was a bais din of three neutral rabbanim, but if they dare say anything to the effect they are in denial, pushing things under the rug and or enabling abuse so they take their opinions elsewhere.

b.chadash

Fri, Dec 31 2021, 1:00 am

What do I gain?
I was personally affected.
I live in America and never met the guy. But I owned almost all of his books. My children read them. My trust was shattered. I am so beyond disgusted and horrified that this man was able to perpetrate such awful crimes and get away with it for 20 years. I am horrified that he managed to abuse his victims one final time with his suicide.

What I gain is the ability to process an unfathomable event. The ability to declare loud and clear that chillul Hashem is not by talking about evil but rather by staying silent about it.

There is a reason many rabbis are coming out and speaking about it. Just as we had to process Meron and Surfside, when tens and hundreds of people were killed, so too we have to process the destruction of hundreds of thousands of children who have lost their innocence, and adults whose faith in mankind have been seriously harmed .

OOT

Fri, Dec 31 2021, 9:47 am

B. Chadash, I definitely hear your point about this being a shock and something of a trauma for the entire frum community. If I understand you correctly, you are saying that talking about distressing events helps you to process them. I cannot take that away from you.
But as much as your distress is real, there are others, closer to the epicenter of a storm, who are experiencing infinitely more distress than any of us on the periphery. Think of the way their lives are being continuously destroyed by those of us that are “processing” news in a manner that is less than discreet.
Sometimes it is a mitzva, and we are required to talk about the actions of others. Sometimes it is purely destructive, as I’ve seen myself.

naturalmom5

Fri, Dec 31 2021, 10:49 am

cutestbaby wrote:

Quote:

what do you, a member of Klal yisroel, gain by speaking about other peoples private business, even when that business is (possibly) horrific behaviors?

-If that person is alive, and doing things that will hurt others, it's a mitzvah to publicize their behavior if it will save even one person from being victimized by them.
-Alternatively, if that person is no longer alive, or like you said if you're not personally at risk from them, speaking about what they did and condemning it in the strongest terms may discourage other people from behaving in the same way, since they know that their name will be ruined.
"Mind your own business" is NOT a Jewish value.

MAH TOVU OHALECHA YACOB

I'm sorry about what happened to you, but unfortunately these things happen sometimes.

Fox

Fri, Dec 31 2021, 11:18 am

OOT wrote:

An innocent question… what do you, a member of Klal yisroel, gain by speaking about other peoples private business, even when that business is (possibly) horrific behaviors?

Again- I’m not taking about alleged victims of abuse, or those that need to be protected from possible abuse. I’m talking about the rest of us who were not personally at risk of being harmed.

I have reached the conclusion that 99 percent of the women on Imamother and elsewhere who complain about rampant abuse in the frum world or tolerance of such abuse are amoral liars just cloaking their own awful middos.

Why do I speak so stridently? Because in nearly 15 years on Imamother, I'm sickened by seeing so many posters advocate one-size-fits-all solutions to problems that are individual in their nature AND show over and over that they care nothing about the victims.

For example, many posters want to widely publicize every scandal, defending such action by claiming that it "raises awareness." But what of the victims? What happens when people in their daled amos deduce that they were abused and assume that they are permanently disabled in some way by the abuse? What happens when all the well-meaning busibodies go around telling victims, either individually or as a group, that their lives are "ruined"? How does that help anyone heal?

It is absurd to think that we can't protect people from predators without making it into salacious gossip -- gossip that often hurts the victims far more than the predator.

I have written endlessly about the need for infrastructure within each community that addresses sensitive cases of abuse. I've seen how effective such an infrastructure is at finding approaches that take predators out of circulation while doing everything possible to ensure that victims aren't victimized twice -- once by the predator and once by the gossip. I've also seen how cases of false accusations are handled to avoid as much harm as possible to those accused and to the mentally ill accusers.

So, no, OP --.there is absolutely no excuse for turning every tragic story into an opportunity for people to virtue signal about how opposed they are to bad behavior. They are secondary predators and should be regarded in that manner.

taketwo

Fri, Dec 31 2021, 11:29 am

Fox wrote:

Where is your outrage about the bolded? Why is the community viewing victims of s-xual abuse as permanently disabled? Why is the victim shamed in the frum world? This is the bigger problem.

Rubies

Fri, Dec 31 2021, 11:33 am

Fox wrote:

Oh how I wish my thoughts are expressed as eloquently as yours.

momsrus

Fri, Dec 31 2021, 11:38 am

taketwo wrote:

Where is your outrage about the bolded? Why is the community viewing victims of s-xual abuse as permanently disabled? Why is the victim shamed in the frum world? This is the bigger problem.

It’s not the community, it’s people like you.

There are many people that were abused that were not affected because people take the same scenarios differently, but then people on here and elsewhere come screaming how everyone that’s abused is damaged, commuting suicide, otd, depressed and whatnot and they think what’s wrong with me that I wasn’t affected by what was done to me.

Fox

Fri, Dec 31 2021, 11:47 am

taketwo wrote:

Where is your outrage about the bolded? Why is the community viewing victims of s-xual abuse as permanently disabled? Why is the victim shamed in the frum world? This is the bigger problem.

Utterly ridiculous and a perfect example of double-victimization.

If victims are protected as much as possible from pointless gossip, there is no "shaming" because people don't know what's going on.

And why are victims viewed as permanently disabled? Do you think it might have something to do with legions of morally depraved people saying that over and over?

I can't count the number of posts on Imamother where someone has claimed that "abuse ruins lives." Yes, it can. But what does that say to victims? How about, "I'm so sorry that an awful thing happened to you, but I have complete faith in your ability to heal and create a wonderful, productive life"?

Sorry, but no. Gossip in the name of "raising awareness" is just an excuse to ensure that victims must struggle to recover from two traumas instead of one.

taketwo

Fri, Dec 31 2021, 11:53 am

momsrus wrote:

Everyone reacts different to trauma. Most go on to lead normal, healthy lives. For some victims it's harder to do, but they still do it. It takes years of therapy and effort to deal with the long lasting ptsd. That doesn't mean they should be stigmatized more than someone who has diabetes and has to adjust their diet to live a healthy life.

And yes, there are victims who are not able to lead normal lives. There are victims that the trauma effected them more so, and they do have a difficult time leading a normal life, due to their abuse. Should they be further victimized by a stigma? Fox's post makes it sound like all victims need to hide, because there is a shame in being a victim of abuse. There is no shame on being a victim, only shame in being an abuser.

Last edited by taketwo on Fri, Dec 31 2021, 12:49 pm; edited 1 time in total

taketwo

Fri, Dec 31 2021, 11:56 am

Fox wrote:

The two bolded statements are not a contradiction. Abuse does ruin lives and you can heal and create a wonderful, productive life.

jkl

Fri, Dec 31 2021, 12:00 pm

Fox wrote:

Totally agree with you on this. And I believe the latest threads on this site all support your point. Supposedly, they're all about 'toeles', or 'raising awareness', or 'forward fixes', but all the posts are either full of gossip, bashing Rabbis, and attacks. It's as you say, people want to gossip about so they're cloaking themselves under some sort of self-righteous cover and act in an indignant manner when called out. They then try to turn the tables on you and call you all kinds of names, such as deniers, promoting abusers, and what not.

The funny thing is they don't even realize they're using the exact same tactics that the abusers themselves use to manipulate discussions.