Speak no Evil | Imamother

OOT

Wed, Dec 29 2021, 2:04 pm

First let me say what this statement is NOT:
It is NOT to ever justify any type of abuse under any circumstances.
It is NOT to minimize the devastating effects of abuse.
It is NOT to encourage victims of abuse to keep quiet or shove things under the rug.

What is it?
An innocent question… what do you, a member of Klal yisroel, gain by speaking about other peoples private business, even when that business is (possibly) horrific behaviors?
Again- I’m not taking about alleged victims of abuse, or those that need to be protected from possible abuse. I’m talking about the rest of us who were not personally at risk of being harmed.

What is my agenda here?
I’ve had the un- lovely experience of being a victim of a smear campaign by members of my inner circle. I know firsthand the pain or being talked about by the public and judged by people who have not a clue as to what really happened. I can relate to the devastation and destruction of lives ( and I’m not being dramatic over here, I mean it for real) that happens when people mind business that is not theirs to mind.

So I ask you- and not antagonistically- I would really like to understand- what do YOU gain by talking about other people?

Java

Wed, Dec 29 2021, 2:08 pm

Quote:

what do you, a member of Klal yisroel, gain by speaking about other peoples private business, even when that business is (possibly) horrific behaviors?

-If that person is alive, and doing things that will hurt others, it's a mitzvah to publicize their behavior if it will save even one person from being victimized by them.
-Alternatively, if that person is no longer alive, or like you said if you're not personally at risk from them, speaking about what they did and condemning it in the strongest terms may discourage other people from behaving in the same way, since they know that their name will be ruined.
"Mind your own business" is NOT a Jewish value.
I'm sorry about what happened to you, but unfortunately these things happen sometimes.

Last edited by Java on Wed, Dec 29 2021, 2:08 pm; edited 1 time in total

#BestBubby

Wed, Dec 29 2021, 2:08 pm

It is the nature of people (some, much more than others) who love to discuss scandals.

Perhaps it makes one feel superior.

People are nosy/curious.

People want to understand how it happened so it won't happen to them.

People want to be "popular" so join any conversation that the "machers" are discussing.

Ema of 5

Wed, Dec 29 2021, 2:15 pm

cutestbaby wrote:

Quote:

what do you, a member of Klal yisroel, gain by speaking about other peoples private business, even when that business is (possibly) horrific behaviors?

Publicize to whom though? What is the toeles of publicizing worldwide something that is happening in Erie, PA (just picking a random place) when most people in the world will never even go there? If someone moves there, or if the guilty party moves somewhere else, then it is incumbent upon the drop, PA community to inform them, but why does the entire world need to know? Does that fall under the category of publicizing? (I honestly don’t know, I’m asking.)
What if the guilty party was a cheater in business? Will talking specifically about that person cause other people to reconsider before doing the same thing, or will speaking about WHAT THEY DID, and publicizing how wrong WHAT TRHEY DID is, a better option?
Again, OP said we are not talking about abusers and their victims. This is a general question.

OOT

Wed, Dec 29 2021, 7:22 pm

Cutestbaby,
What do you mean when you say that minding your own business is not a Jewish value? I understand that when there is a potential danger involved, then we don’t stand by while someone is shedding another’s blood. We both definitely agree on that point.
But other than that, minding your own business most certainly IS a Jewish value. Why are my private affairs ( not literal affairs lol) of concern to other people? What I’ve seen in my life is that if it’s not your fight, stay out of it. When random people take sides and pass judgement, it only adds fuel to the fire.
Not for naught are we taught that life and death can be determined by the tongue.
As far as your point regarding preventing others from going down the same evil path, for sure true that this is a teachable moment. As they say, “never let a good crisis go to waste.” Definitely we should be increasing awareness about all types of abuse, and implementing a zero tolerance policy in our society.
But again, to rephrase my original question…
Increasing awareness and decreasing tolerance for bad behaviors, yes.
Talking about , and passing judgment on the PEOPLE that may or may not have been involved in bad behaviors… of what benefit is it to you?

Mermaidinexile

Wed, Dec 29 2021, 7:25 pm

cutestbaby wrote:

Quote:

what do you, a member of Klal yisroel, gain by speaking about other peoples private business, even when that business is (possibly) horrific behaviors?

This and absolutely this.

PassionFruit

Wed, Dec 29 2021, 7:45 pm

Abuse in particular has been swept under the rug in many instances until recent years. And it still happens. The community needs to talk about it and digest it and figure out how to deal with it in schools, families, shuls, etc because it not talking puts all of us at risk.

believe22

Wed, Dec 29 2021, 7:55 pm

Let’s review some history.

If I’m correct:

Queen Esther managed to keep her Jewishness a secret despite the fact that every single Jewish person knew she was one of them. In this merit the Jews were saved from annihilation. Look -a time to keep quiet.

If I’m correct:
The story with Pilegesh B’givaah -referencing here due to the correlations with ‘abuse’ -was publicized, and that brought about the destruction of those responsible -tragic but necessary. Look-a time to share.

Ask your Rabbi if you’re allowed to speak about the current events. It’s either a yay or nay.

OOT

Wed, Dec 29 2021, 9:41 pm

One more thing, cutestbaby. What do you mean by “unfortunately these things happen,” in regard to the destruction that was brought upon me and my innocent family?
For one- it didn’t “happen.” People did it. To me and to my family, by gossiping and judging and taking sides.
Secondly, would you say “unfortunately these things happen” to victims of abuse?
Some things, like needless loshon hora, are just intolerable even if they don’t fall under the standard abuse umbrella.

Java

Thu, Dec 30 2021, 3:03 pm

OOT wrote:

I stand by what I said. Obviously what happened to you was very sad, and I'm really sorry about that. I'm sure it's easier for me to say since I've never been in this situation, but I still think that it's better that one person get accused falsely than one predator be allowed to roam free.

Rubies

Thu, Dec 30 2021, 3:24 pm

cutestbaby wrote:

Quote:

what do you, a member of Klal yisroel, gain by speaking about other peoples private business, even when that business is (possibly) horrific behaviors?

Regarding your first point, is that always true? Because I don't see any information being publicized for the many therapists that have caused untold amounts of damage to their clients albeit without zxual abuse? The shame is there, the victims cannot speak up without losing privacy and dignity and yet I don't see any names being publicized?
Many of these victims have been abused in the past, so this would just be a continuation of them being abused and retraumatizing victims. Why are their names redacted? Why is the assumption that the victim is unhealthy and obviously needs therapy instead of them being believed?

So many similarities in pattern, no similarities in response. Why?

Java

Thu, Dec 30 2021, 3:26 pm

Rubies wrote:

You're right. That's a good question, and I don't know the answer.

PinkFridge

Thu, Dec 30 2021, 3:39 pm

Minding your own business is DEFINITELY a Jewish value - Mah Tovu Ohalecha Yaakov.
The question is, can it be misapplied so vulnerable innocent people aren't protected.
And, are the people who are speaking doing it l'toeles and appropriately. Just as it's a mitzvah not to say what shouldn't be said - and it's generally better to err on the side of caution - it's a mitzvah TO say what should be said.

Rubies

Thu, Dec 30 2021, 3:54 pm

PinkFridge wrote:

I can easily see the toeles in the article previously posted, a speech by a Rav that has heard the pain of victims, or in discussion with a few people of your choice. Not so much in anonymous dissection on this site without purpose.
How to share with kids, okay. How to process it yourself, okay. Dissect and discuss details with strangers, not okay.

OOT

Thu, Dec 30 2021, 7:56 pm

Thank you to all for your insights.
Obviously it’s always important to speak up in order to prevent damage..
In my situation, no one was preventing damage by talking about what was going on. No one was at risk of being harmed. So what justification or benefit is there to talking about specific others in that case…??
Tbh, I think people felt that they were being “supportive “ of others by taking their side. Let me tell ya, it may have felt good at the time, but in the long run, they made things much worse.
As a kid in elementary school, I’ve learned that a speaker, listener and victim of LH are all hurt, and the school of Life has taught me that it’s true.