Would you consider such a person frum?

Seraph

Mon, Oct 27 2008, 9:57 am

ChossidMom wrote:

Isn't this a question for a rav?

It would be, however, I'm asking this theoretically, if you'd consider such a person frum.

About shabbos, this person will basically keep shabbos. However, she will go to the beach in a bikini on shabbos, and if its right after shkia (not licht bentching, real shkia) and she forgot to do something important, she will do it, like turn off the oven...

Catonmylap, for chashuv foods, like meat, bishul akum is definitely not chumra, its halacha. look up in any kashrus sefer. however, some hold that if a frum person was involved in the process, like even lighting the pilot light, its enough...
And in terms of people mechalel shabbos bifarhesia being considered like akum, maybe its chumra, but I think not considering someone to be in that category is the kula, not that what I hold is the chumra. I think when I read the halacha in the sefer, it said the din is as I said, but you can possibly be meikil in certain circumstances.

the issue is neemanus. can you trust someone that they will do things properly and not treif up your stuff?
and even if such a person considers herself frum and wouldnt purposely do something to treif up your pots, etc, if she either doesnt understand that certain things are clear cut halacha (like not sleeping with your boyfreind, and you even announce that you're not ashamed of it, by living with him) or she just doesnt care about the minutae, how can you trust that she wont make a mistake and lie about it, because "its only a tiny little bit of butter instead of margarine, its not really such a big deal"...
and I think such a person as I've described, you cant trust them that a) they actually know the halachos b) they care enough to not lie about something small.

amother

Mon, Oct 27 2008, 10:01 am

Clarissa wrote:

princessleah wrote:

I live in a very MO community, where this kind of thing comes up a lot. I generally work on a dan le'kaf zechut principle. While friends may eat at non-kosher restaurants, etc. most are very strict on keeping the house kosher. And I since they know what my standards are, I assume they will not deliberately violate my kashrut standards, and they don't, because they're good people. I am similar in the way that I cook-- if someone has certain standards, like if I had someone over who only eats CY, I would get those products-- I wouldn't use regular milk and pretend it's ok.

I would hope that most people are respectful of others, and I like to assume they are.

Exactly. I know plenty of people (ahem) who will eat in restaurants that others might not deem acceptable, and they are completely careful with their own food, and especially when preparing food for those more stringent. If we trust someone, we trust them.

ahhhmm im sorry to burst your bubble clarisa but I have had the misfortune to know people that would pretend that food is of a certain standard-just bec they think that the frum person is over board and fanatical!

my grandmother in law is one of those people- and when you catch her out she says oh please man! she is really upset that the frum part of the family wont eat at her, but when I say things like but you will cook on shabbos she says-no I wont-when I know clearly that she does bec she had no prob to put the stove on on shabbos when my MIL forgot to turn it on before shabbos- so now obviously no one could eat...

Clarissa

Mon, Oct 27 2008, 10:01 am

Makes me wonder whether any of you would eat in my home. Not that it matters, as I find all of you very annoying and wouldn't want you here, anyway. Plus, the place is a mess...

Back on topic. Seraph, I'm wondering whether you think the fact that she lives with a man has any impact on her attitude about kashrut. Is the idea that if somebody is s*xually active, they must be lax in every area? Or is the implication that she must not really know laws of kashrut, if she doesn't follow another rule in a completely different area? Life can get very complicated if we start looking at people this way.

Clarissa

Mon, Oct 27 2008, 10:03 am

amother wrote:

Clarissa wrote:

princessleah wrote:

So, you know a dishonest person, who would do "pretend," therefore, all people who observe differently will also pretend and deceive? I'd hate to go through life so suspicious.

You didn't burst my bubble. I think you're bursting unnecessary bubbles, and they are your own. Some people respect other peoples' wishes, and don't deceive them.

tovarena

Mon, Oct 27 2008, 10:03 am

Chocoholic wrote:

Who are we to judge?

Unfortunately, don't we have to judge if we are eating the food? I may not like that concept, but if you're living in a community that isn't completely monolithic and/or you're not the least frum of the bunch, it sometimes becomes necessary. I know we've hit up against it a few times and try to be as bending as our rav allowed (with different approaches for all sorts of different situations), but it seems to be almost an inevitability in many places.

BeershevaBubby

Mon, Oct 27 2008, 10:06 am

Seraph wrote:

the issue is neemanus. can you trust someone that they will do things properly and not treif up your stuff?
and even if such a person considers herself frum and wouldnt purposely do something to treif up your pots, etc, if she either doesnt understand that certain things are clear cut halacha (like not sleeping with your boyfreind, and you even announce that you're not ashamed of it, by living with him) or she just doesnt care about the minutae, how can you trust that she wont make a mistake and lie about it, because "its only a tiny little bit of butter instead of margarine, its not really such a big deal"...
and I think such a person as I've described, you cant trust them that a) they actually know the halachos b) they care enough to not lie about something small.

Why are you loaning her your stuff then? Instead, invite her over to do the cooking at your house since it's already with your pots and ingredients.

shalhevet

Mon, Oct 27 2008, 10:09 am

Clarissa wrote:

Seraph, I'm wondering whether you think the fact that she lives with a man has any impact on her attitude about kashrut. Is the idea that if somebody is s*xually active, they must be lax in every area?

Clarissa, I think you got this board mixed up with www.imanun.com. I think almost all the members here are s*xually active and live with a man, but they still keep kashrut.

Seraph

Mon, Oct 27 2008, 10:10 am

Clarissa wrote:

What I'm saying is: announcing to the world that you don't keep a certain mitzva (and that you're not ashamed of it) would pretty much, in my opinion, be announcing that you really don't care enough about halacha. if I were sxually active (before marriage), or doing some other big aveira, like being an axe murderer (I'm not comparing the two, dont worry), and announced it to the world (which pretty much is saying "I think I'm not doing anything wrong, I've got nothing to be ashamed of") is the same as someone who is mechalel shabbos in public (because as long as someone is just being mechalel shabbos in private but won't in public, they're saying "I have enough respect for yiddishkeit to not publicize my misdeeds".)

Did I make any sense whatsoever?

Clarissa

Mon, Oct 27 2008, 10:15 am

Seraph wrote:

Clarissa wrote:

Sure, it makes sense, but I don't agree, as somebody who was s-xually active and an axe murderer (released early because of a technicality), obviously. And I know others who are strictly kosher but were s-xually active, as I said in my other post. Must everyone be ashamed in order to be decent Jews? I'm not endorsing promiscuity here, but if all things become equal, nobody can ever eat anywhere else. Do you know if the husbands of the couples in whose homes you eat ever watch [filth]? Ever cheat on their taxes? If you hear a husband brag about a shady business practice, without shame, is his food treif that his wife has prepared?

Last edited by Clarissa on Mon, Oct 27 2008, 10:17 am; edited 1 time in total

Clarissa

Mon, Oct 27 2008, 10:15 am

shalhevet wrote:

Clarissa wrote:

That link didn't work for me, but your post doesn't make sense. I don't have this board confused with any other board. I know people who have been s-xually active and are strictly kosher. You really think this is never the case?

Clarissa, there is a whole mikva section here. And the people posting there keep kosher.

I don't understand that, either. Granted, I'm tired today, but I just don't get it.

Seraph

Mon, Oct 27 2008, 10:18 am

Clarissa wrote:

shalhevet wrote:

Clarissa wrote:

Clarissa, there is a whole mikva section here. And the people posting there keep kosher.

I don't understand that, either. Granted, I'm tired today, but I just don't get it.

shes saying married women are sxually active. Tongue Out

Seraph

Mon, Oct 27 2008, 10:21 am

Clarissa wrote:

Strictly kosher to their standards, or ours? Meaning, this person as I mentioned, thinks she's frum, and thinks she keeps kosher, but I cant beleive she'd ever pick up the phone to a rav if a mix up happens...

if I knew the husband watched [filth] and announced it to the world, or announced that he was involved in shady business dealings, I probably wouldnt feel so comfortable to eat food that HE cooked. (What his wife cooks is another story.) Heck, I wouldnt even eat food my husband cooked, because he never learned kashrus halacha, which is why he doesnt do stuff in the kitchen.