Would you consider such a person frum?

Seraph

Mon, Oct 27 2008, 8:23 am

If someone considers herself "frum", just modern orthodox, doesnt beleive in hilchos tznius, and will live with her boyfreind (either is currently or has in the past and would gladly do it again if the right person came along), and would eat sushi in a treif restaurant, would you consider them "frum", in the halachic sense of the word?

Seraph

Mon, Oct 27 2008, 8:29 am

No, my main question was really- if someone considers herself frum, but lives with her boyfriend, would you consider her frum, as the 3 main things that make someone frum are shabbos, kashrus, and taharas hamishpacha...
There is a reason I'm asking, I'm not just stam asking to make strife.
Like, lets say this person cooked something for you in your pot with your ingredients, would you consider it dino kibishul akum, as would be the case with someone not frum, or would you consider it to be kosher?

shalhevet

Mon, Oct 27 2008, 8:35 am

So you are not asking if she's frum (what help are labels?), but if halachically her food is bishul akum? Not an emotional/ semantic answer, but a halachic one.

So the answer is - ask your LOR.

(AFAIK, someone's food is only considered bishul akum if they are mechalel Shabbos in public, so things like kashrus/ TH are irrelevant.)

costanza

Mon, Oct 27 2008, 8:35 am

Wait - is that accurate, that a non-frum Jew is has the status of a [gentile] re: bishul akum? That is something I have never heard of.

Without any halachic knowledge on this, my instinct is to say, that if she knows how frum you are and respects you, I don't think she would treif up your pots just because she has a boyfriend. She can probably differentiate between different situations.

Mimisinger

Mon, Oct 27 2008, 8:37 am

Seraph wrote:

Who says this?

Also, you haven't said anything about shabbos, re. sushi, while I wouldn't do it, I'm sure you can make an argument for it - it's cold, it's identifiable fish, etc., and living with the bf? I have nothing for that.

But, you're opening the same can of worms - what is frum?

catonmylap

Mon, Oct 27 2008, 8:38 am

Quote:

Like, lets say this person cooked something for you in your pot with your ingredients, would you consider it dino kibishul akum, as would be the case with someone not frum, or would you consider it to be kosher?

I never heard that before.

It sounds like you have a number of chumras on top of each other though(bishul achum itself, this idea that someone not frum is like a [gentile], and this womans status which is iffy itself)...I think you should ask your Rav.

daamom

Mon, Oct 27 2008, 8:39 am

I might be wrong, but I don't think food considered bishul akum if the person who cooked it is a shomer shabbos. On the other hand, although all shomrei shabbos have ne'emanus, if you have reason to believe she would not be careful with the laws of kashrus, you should not trust that the food is ok to eat.
I don't know about the pots. I think you have to decide here whether or not you trust her at all.

BeershevaBubby

Mon, Oct 27 2008, 8:47 am

Seraph wrote:

There is a reason I'm asking, I'm not just stam asking to make strife.
Like, lets say this person cooked something for you in your pot with your ingredients, would you consider it dino kibishul akum, as would be the case with someone not frum, or would you consider it to be kosher?

Doesn't Bishul Akum concern a non-Jew, not someone who is questionably frum?

And JOOC, where is she doing this cooking with your ingredients and your pots? I mean unless she's cooking it in her trief oven and/or you gave her salami and a stick of butter, what's the problem? I mean it has nothing to do with her frumkeit, it's all about outright trief...

Last edited by BeershevaBubby on Mon, Oct 27 2008, 8:49 am; edited 1 time in total

Clarissa

Mon, Oct 27 2008, 8:49 am

tovarena wrote:

Regardless of whether someone would live with their boyfriend, the fact that she eats out treif would seem, to me, to be reason not to accept her kashrus.

Why? If she's fully aware of the laws of kashrut but eats certain things out at restaurants (carefully chosen) it doesn't mean she isn't perfectly capable of preparing a kosher meal, if she's provided with kosher implements and ingredients.

The woman is Jewish. She considers herself observant. If she's knowledgeable in the laws of kashrut, what's the problem?

Unless we're talking about a bad person who would plot to treif up other peoples' food deliberately (mental illness or part of an evil, grand design to undermine the Jewish world) what's the concern?

tovarena

Mon, Oct 27 2008, 9:02 am

Clarissa wrote:

Well, I read incorrectly the first time through. I missed the fact that it's not with her own pots and ingredients. OTOH, I would still say that if someone considers herself observant but eats out treif, that questions their ne'emanus. I have been through similar situations. I have a few friends that eat out at Whole Foods. I really tried to continue giving them the benefit of the doubt until I saw that they had brought leftovers home.

But getting back to the situation here, if it's with your own pots and ingredients, I can't see that it could go too wrong. Is it in your own kitchen as well, or hers?

princessleah

Mon, Oct 27 2008, 9:30 am

I live in a very MO community, where this kind of thing comes up a lot. I generally work on a dan le'kaf zechut principle. While friends may eat at non-kosher restaurants, etc. most are very strict on keeping the house kosher. And I since they know what my standards are, I assume they will not deliberately violate my kashrut standards, and they don't, because they're good people. I am similar in the way that I cook-- if someone has certain standards, like if I had someone over who only eats CY, I would get those products-- I wouldn't use regular milk and pretend it's ok.

I would hope that most people are respectful of others, and I like to assume they are.

shalhevet

Mon, Oct 27 2008, 9:34 am

catonmylap wrote:

Quote:

Bishul akum is not a chumra, it's a halacha.

Basically, if you take your pots, glatt kosher food and let a [gentile] cook it, the food and the pots are treif.

How much does a Jew have to be part of the cooking process so as for it not to be considered bishul akum? Ask your rav (Sephardim are stricter.) Also some unimportant foods are not included - again ask your rav.

Straight halacha says a Jew who breaks Shabbos in public is considered a [gentile] for this purpose. I have heard that MO are meikel. AYLOR.

Also, Seraph, there are no distinctions in halacha between kinds of Jew - no reform, conservative or reconstructionist. No keeping '3 basic mitzvos' or anything else. The ONLY doing/ not doing (as opposed to believing/ apikorsus etc) halachic distinction is breaking Shabbos in public or not.

gamekeeper

Mon, Oct 27 2008, 9:48 am

shalhevet wrote:

you definitely need to ask your local rabbi!

Clarissa

Mon, Oct 27 2008, 9:51 am

princessleah wrote:

Exactly. I know plenty of people (ahem) who will eat in restaurants that others might not deem acceptable, and they are completely careful with their own food, and especially when preparing food for those more stringent. If we trust someone, we trust them.

amother

Mon, Oct 27 2008, 9:56 am

A MO friend of mine who eats out milchiks admitted to me that was having yeshivish guests over and used tomato sauce without a hechsher because she was desperate. I have to say, if her personal standards were to keep 100% kosher her guests wouldn't have suffered.