Laws of Yichud | Imamother

Motek

Mon, Apr 10 2006, 3:46 pm

elisecohen wrote:

please let us be very careful not to blame the victim in saying that yichud "could have" prevented past or future abuse. While we are all bound to observe the mitzvah, we have no right to ever even suggest that being lax would mean someone should have deserved din of abuse, violence, or violation.

let me ask you this - if someone used an electrical appliance in the shower and got electrocuted, would you say, "let us be careful not to blame the victim" and would you say that we have no right to suggest that being lax about safety is why the person got electrocuted? (note: I'm not using the word "deserved")

elisecohen

Mon, Apr 10 2006, 4:24 pm

First, the two things are not interchangeable, as you know perfectly well, because there are several added elements here, including the halachic responsibility to observe yichud and the inherent social and emotional weight of abuse. Second, there is a difference between someone suffering an injury directly from an inanimate object which he is using and being injured by another person. Third, in many cases of abuse in a yichud situation, the victim-and yes remember we are talking about victims here-are not the ones who could have avoided the situation, namely children or teens who are influenced and supervised by adults. But even in the case of an adult woman in a yichud situation who is then mistreated, we do not say it is her fault that she was mistreated. It is her fault that she violated halacha, but it is not up to us to say that the injury is heavenly retribution.

Would you say that a 5 year old girl left with a male baby sitter who abuses her is responsible for her fate? Or that her mother who left her because she had no other way to go to work to support herself and the child? No. The one who is responsible--the only one--is the abuser himself. Likewise, a young woman who goes out on a shidduch with a man and finds herself in a situation she did not expect or did not fully understand and is then abused is not responsible--the abuser is.

If is all very well to feel superior and be sure our own observance is complete in these halachahs, but absolutely nothing ever gives us the right to judge others. I know I seem to say this very often in these discussions, but I feel very strongly that we must be careful to remember this. It is not up to us to judge that someone had "something coming to them" or "asked for it with her behavior or dress." It is up to G-d and we can not begin to understand why he chooses to have many of these things happen.

Crayon210

Mon, Apr 10 2006, 5:35 pm

elisecohen wrote:

Third, in many cases of abuse in a yichud situation, the victim-and yes remember we are talking about victims here-are not the ones who could have avoided the situation, namely children or teens who are influenced and supervised by adults.

elisecohen wrote:

But even in the case of an adult woman in a yichud situation who is then mistreated, we do not say it is her fault that she was mistreated. It is her fault that she violated halacha, but it is not up to us to say that the injury is heavenly retribution.

elisecohen wrote:

Would you say that a 5 year old girl left with a male baby sitter who abuses her is responsible for her fate?

No one would put any responsibility on the five-year-old, though I would advocate that she be taught the basics of who she can and can't be alone with and/or touch.

elisecohen wrote:

Or that her mother who left her because she had no other way to go to work to support herself and the child?

I wouldn't blame her for the abuse, but it is her responsibility to make sure that her daughter is in a halachically permissible situation.

elisecohen wrote:

The one who is responsible--the only one--is the abuser himself.

elisecohen wrote:

Likewise, a young woman who goes out on a shidduch with a man and finds herself in a situation she did not expect or did not fully understand and is then abused is not responsible--the abuser is.

Again, she has the responsibility to be in a halachically appropriate situation, but regardless of what situation she's in, she's not to blame for abuse she suffers CHV.

The rest of elisecohen's post is right on the money as well!

Motek

Mon, Apr 10 2006, 5:38 pm

elisecohen wrote:

If is all very well to feel superior and be sure our own observance is complete in these halachahs

are you referring to anybody in particular? Confused

Quote:

absolutely nothing ever gives us the right to judge others. I know I seem to say this very often in these discussions, but I feel very strongly that we must be careful to remember this. It is not up to us to judge that someone had "something coming to them" or "asked for it with her behavior or dress." It is up to G-d and we can not begin to understand why he chooses to have many of these things happen.

your response is passionate though I don't see how it actually responds to what I wrote

you speak of "deserving", "victims," "fault" "judging" and "heavenly retribution"

I am bringing up another point.

My point is that just as G-d set up His world in such a way that using an electric appliance in the shower is dangerous and can cause electroluction, and we don't say this is heavenly retribution, so too, G-d set up His world with certain spiritual realities that impact on the physical world in cause and effect kind of ways.

It's important to know that following halacha is the best thing for us, physically as well as materially. And G-d tells us, through the Torah and halacha "what's coming to us" both in the positive sense as well as in the negative sense.

Here's an example - mezuza. Torah sources tell us that a mezuza provides protection. Now, what happens if a person didn't know about mezuzos and something bad happened to him? Did G-d take revenge on him? Did the person deserve it, have it coming to him? Was it his fault?

All those questions are the wrong questions. We don't know why that bad thing happened and we don't know why G-d prevented this Jew from getting a Jewish education and learning about mezuzos, but at the same time - the person did not have a mezuza and mezuzos provide protection!

Do you see how we are thinking along different tracks? Do you understand what I'm getting at?

chocolate moose

Mon, Apr 10 2006, 6:01 pm

A lot of situations are potentially or not technically yichud, but can be avoided.

Lots of times, near the end of the day, it''s just a man coworker and me left in the office; we work downtown and I live in brooklyn (he lives in lakewood).

I always leave when I notice that; he waits for a bus at a certain time so it's hard for him to leave earlier, but I can catch a subway every few minutes.

why make shaylos?

amother

Wed, Apr 12 2006, 10:17 am

I think we need to turn our thinking about yichud around a little. We've been talking a lot about abuse and molestation. Yes, the laws can pevent a lot of this, but we should follow them just because Hashem said so. We shouldn't be thinking whether we trust the person or not, we should keep them strictly no matter what, just like we are strict with Shabbos or Pesach.

My husband and I have lots of experiense with yichud. We dating for four years and I was even niddah on my wedding night, so we had to find a shomer. One thing that hasn't been mentioned much, but you should check the facts before using this: There's a thing about a kid between like 3-7, or maybe it's two kids, that they break yichud because they have big mouths and would tell if anything unusual happened. Obviously this is the place you use your better judgement so you are still leaving your kids with someone trustworthy.

Crayon210

Wed, Apr 12 2006, 12:30 pm

amother wrote:

I think we need to turn our thinking about yichud around a little. We've been talking a lot about abuse and molestation.

That's because the topic is abuse and molestation, therefore yichud came up as an aspect of the conversation.

amother wrote:

Yes, the laws can pevent a lot of this, but we should follow them just because Hashem said so.

That goes without saying! Smile

amother wrote:

We shouldn't be thinking whether we trust the person or not

Proper adherence to yichud requires a person to throw out the "do I trust the person or not?" mentality.

miriamnechama

Wed, Dec 12 2007, 12:10 pm

This happened today, (not to me) but I was still taken by surprise.

I was at the kupat cholim waiting for a regular dr. in another section right near was a gynecologist doing the organs scan with a nurse available.

now a bit of background how the building looks, where I was waiting for my gp, is what we call the 'merpat nashim" (woman's health area) it has a main door to enter and 2 rooms, one the gyne office and one the scan room. and also a nurses station with a door.

usually this main door remains open all teh time when tehreis gyne around... but today I was shocked beyond means. usually there are women walking in and out, but today and I think she does it evry week, when this dr is there, she lets just one woman in, then she locks the main door so that no one else can enter. then the dr who is mizrachi closes his door (not locked) with the woman inside andthe nurse inher room, the nurse is religious. anyone else waits outside in the main clinic. (when other dr's work there thispart is open all the time and women wait there too)

a bunch of us got talking and thoughtit's a shaila of yichud...I said I'll ask a rov and talk to the head ofthe clinic. I don't know if it's the dr or the nurse that wants it this way, butwhen I askedteh nurse ifit's not yichud she goes to me na.. it's ok there are 2 womenand a man. I think really it's supposed to be the opposite but not sure. also other things involved.

1. day and night, this dr works from 2 till 6 pm in the winter shkia is 4.45 pm, night is more chamor than day,

2, she thinks that women come with their husbands or thathusband's are in town... in my case should or wheni need it, my dh is certainly not in town as he works in jerusalem.. so it might be a problem, besides how can she think that all husbands are in town.

what do you think?? is this situation a problem of yichud that should be made aware to teh nurse dr, etc and ifyes how to go about it?? should I aska rov mention itto the head ofteh kupa??

wwyd????

amother

Wed, Jan 02 2008, 4:02 pm

I'm very embarrassed to say that every time I go to the doctor there is a yichud problem - he closes the door, doesn't lock it though. And I'm embarrassed to ask for a nurse and I don't want him to open the door!

I didn't know it could be ok, if a nurse might come in, but this doesn't usually happen.

Also, when I was in Israel at bikur cholim, I had an appt because of my breast and the doctor took me into his office, locked the doors and told me to lift my shirt. I was

and

but too scared/embarrassed/intimidated to do anything. B"H all he did was feel around etc., etc. But he wasn't even wearing any gloves!!! And, I was just sitting topless in this guys office. I'm mad to even think about it now.
Mad