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amother

Wed, Apr 10 2013, 9:31 pm

amother wrote:

I am not saying you are saving 10 G but if you save $100.00 a week that adds up to $5,200.00 a year. Why don't you ask your accountant what food should cost your family a week. It's not fair that those that shop for good deals have to give their money saved to others if they gave their maser already. They are allowed to go on a vacation with this money.

Yes, you can go on vacation but you should not come back and share the 200 or so pictures you took on said vacation and the endless stories of your kids swimming with the dolphins, learning to snorkel and wave riding with the women who have been stuck at home "enjoying" their staycation. and it wouldn't hurt if you explained to your kids that not everyone can afford such vacations so they should avoid the above with their friends as well. a little common sense and sensitivity to others is always in order.

marina

Wed, Apr 10 2013, 9:40 pm

Maya wrote:

marina wrote:

I cannot fathom why you'd allow yourself clothing choices that you now know might hurt people. I completely disagree with the whole tznius clothing bit, but I've started trying to dress to make people comfortable in shul, at least.

I very strongly disagree with the bolded.

If you want to talk about doing things for others, I know how ridiculous you think is the notion that women should dress tznius because they may be responsible for getting men to look at them. How is this any different? So now I can't buy whatever I want because the woman might be jealous? Just like the men-tznius analogy, that woman should work on her own middos, not restrict my clothing choices.

The part you didn't bold addresses your question.

No, buy whatever you want. Wear it in good health. But if you know, for sure, that someone will suffer if you are wearing the item, why not choose something else for that occasion? And yeah, I do have more sympathy for a woman who is not well off than for a man who is horny, but like I said, if the guy is being sincere and not hypocritical, there's really nothing wrong with me wearing a longer skirt if I know he will be there.

GreenEyes26

Wed, Apr 10 2013, 9:43 pm

amother wrote:

OP here.

So after reading your responses, let me clarify things: A) How many of YOU have cleaning ladies? I dont. If I want to wear designer clothes, whose business is it if someone else feels comfortable. Mind your business. Sorry if you feel bad. YOU all are making me feel worse.

And as a side point, I LIVE in a very wealthy community. (Picture MANSIONS). I live in a condo, no cleaning lady, we dont drive a luxury car. And if a boy in my sons class asks him "hey, whatd you do for yom tov?" why should my son LIE????

So really ladies, its a lesson to you ALL: Mind your own business. We've been through the financial ups and downs. It hasnt been easy. We go without a lot to do a lot. Having a car where we live is essential. We dont eat out a lot (maybe once a month). How many of YOU are getting pizza every Thurs? To the person who said my designer clothes make you uncomfortable...That making you uncomfortable makes you more upsetting then the lady who yelled at me

WOW. Just WOW. I'm kinda beginning to see that woman's point.

In reality, of course, the woman was wrong. No one has the right to yell at you, and no one has the right to tell you how to spend your own money.

But her being wrong doesn't make you right.

Let's take this away from your situation. My shul was trying to raise money for a cause. Someone stood up and said, "I'm not rich, but I'm able to donate $50,000, so I'm sure if you try, all of you can donate too." Wait a minute. Someone who isn't wealthy has $50,000 laying around that he can donate on request? Let me look that up in my dictionary. Wealthy ... wealthy. Oh there. "Anyone who has $50,000 to dispose of without saving up and without much forethought is wealthy." Yeah, I thought so.

Notwithstanding your protestations to the contrary, you are obviously quite wealthy, and have no issues with exhibiting that wealth. Unless you're packing up and driving across town to spend Pesach and Succot with the folks, those trips cost a pretty penny. By registering early and going to a less fancy place, you can probably get Pesach down to $1100 or so per adult, plus kids, plus transportation. As I said, nothing wrong with that. But the whole "and gosh, that's the kind of money I spend during the year on guests, not expensive at all" makes you sound rather clueless to the less wealthy and, yes, like you do engage in ostentatious showings of wealth. And its that part that probably got to the woman.

And for those who wonder, I am anonymous because the shul story really angered me, to the point that I have whined about it to every person I know, and probably a few I don't know.

Are you crazy? Do you know what "wealthy" means? Buying designer clothing on massive sales is not wealthy.Going away twice a year - probably saving the whole year for it too - is not "wealthy". Oh, and btw, getting a $15 pizza once a week and cleaning help is not "wealthy" either. It's comfortable. There's A BIG difference between "wealthy" and "comfortable".

This attitude on this site drives me crazy. I don't know if it's a mix of youth, ignorance, less education or just a misguided view that poverty = piousness, but posters will attack any OP who displays even a hint of having something they don't. Her priorities are screwed up? Nope, yours are - for mistaking middle class with the 1%.

Oh, and I don't know why this needs to be said over and over, this woman was NUTS and the OP can do whatever she darn well wants with her own GD money.

And you know what drives me the absolute craziest? Most of the people who attack these perceived vast riches are people who don't have a lot of money because they don't have any drive to get some. It's one thing to complain about how hard things are when you're working and made reasonable life plans but it's hard in the trenches (and I know some posters do). It's very much another when you're a kollel family and you have a useless Touro college degree and your husband has no skills or education besides warming a bench in beis medrash for 12 hours a day.

It's envy, pure and simple. OP, your attackers know they won't ever be successful, and they don't have anyone to blame but themselves. So they take it out on you. Keep your chin up and buy whatever clothes you please. I wish I had the time or patience to shop around to get some good deals.

marina

Wed, Apr 10 2013, 9:45 pm

amother wrote:

No no, dear. That's not your system. Your system is that we get to say whatever we want and when we want and to whom we want. This is a free country, see? Why should I lie if I want to tell you that you are being an ostentatious jerk? Why should I LIE?

And if you don't like what I said, that's your problem and you should mind your own business.

See how that works? It's your system, I hope you like it Smile

Last edited by marina on Wed, Apr 10 2013, 9:58 pm; edited 1 time in total

Cookies n Cream

Wed, Apr 10 2013, 9:53 pm

GreenEyes26 wrote:

amother wrote:

Are you crazy? Do you know what "wealthy" means? Buying designer clothing on massive sales is not wealthy.Going away twice a year - probably saving the whole year for it too - is not "wealthy". Oh, and btw, getting a $15 pizza once a week and cleaning help is not "wealthy" either. It's comfortable. There's A BIG difference between "wealthy" and "comfortable".

This attitude on this site drives me crazy. I don't know if it's a mix of youth, ignorance, less education or just a misguided view that poverty = piousness, but posters will attack any OP who displays even a hint of having something they don't. Her priorities are screwed up? Nope, yours are - for mistaking middle class with the 1%.
[color=] [/color]
Oh, and I don't know why this needs to be said over and over, this woman was NUTS and the OP can do whatever she darn well wants with her own GD money.

And you know what drives me the absolute craziest? Most of the people who attack these perceived vast riches are people who don't have a lot of money because they don't have any drive to get some. It's one thing to complain about how hard things are when you're working and made reasonable life plans but it's hard in the trenches (and I know some posters do). It's very much another when you're a kollel family and you have a useless Touro college degree and your husband has no skills or education besides warming a bench in beis medrash for 12 hours a day.

It's envy, pure and simple. OP, your attackers know they won't ever be successful, and they don't have anyone to blame but themselves. So they take it out on you. Keep your chin up and buy whatever clothes you please. I wish I had the time or patience to shop around to get some good deals.

There are so many things in your post that I find totally skewed, I honestly don't even know where to start.

Going away twice a year... Designer clothing... MIDDLE CLASS?

marina

Wed, Apr 10 2013, 9:55 pm

It's really not that complicated.

If you are going to be around people with infertility, don't show off your kids. Don't show baby pictures and don't dress them up in matching outfits and don't tell us the cute things they said and don't go on about all the headaches that go along with an infant.

If you are going to be around people with poverty, don't show off your wealth. Don't flash your diamond ring, don't tell us the details of your trip to Hawaii, don't go on about all the headaches that go along with remodeling your home.

If you are going to be around a quadriplegic, eh, maybe don't show off your Olympic medals or complain about your pulled muscles.

I don't know why your tznius teacher didn't cover this, OP.

GreenEyes26

Wed, Apr 10 2013, 9:56 pm

Cookies n Cream wrote:

GreenEyes26 wrote:

amother wrote:

Are you crazy? Do you know what "wealthy" means? Buying designer clothing on massive sales is not wealthy.Going away twice a year - probably saving the whole year for it too - is not "wealthy". Oh, and btw, getting a $15 pizza once a week and cleaning help is not "wealthy" either. It's comfortable. There's A BIG difference between "wealthy" and "comfortable".

This attitude on this site drives me crazy. I don't know if it's a mix of youth, ignorance, less education or just a misguided view that poverty = piousness, but posters will attack any OP who displays even a hint of having something they don't. Her priorities are screwed up? Nope, yours are - for mistaking middle class with the 1%.
[color=] [/color]
Oh, and I don't know why this needs to be said over and over, this woman was NUTS and the OP can do whatever she darn well wants with her own GD money.

And you know what drives me the absolute craziest? Most of the people who attack these perceived vast riches are people who don't have a lot of money because they don't have any drive to get some. It's one thing to complain about how hard things are when you're working and made reasonable life plans but it's hard in the trenches (and I know some posters do). It's very much another when you're a kollel family and you have a useless Touro college degree and your husband has no skills or education besides warming a bench in beis medrash for 12 hours a day.

It's envy, pure and simple. OP, your attackers know they won't ever be successful, and they don't have anyone to blame but themselves. So they take it out on you. Keep your chin up and buy whatever clothes you please. I wish I had the time or patience to shop around to get some good deals.

There are so many things in your post that I find totally skewed, I honestly don't even know where to start.

Going away twice a year... Designer clothing... MIDDLE CLASS?

Don't take what I said out of context. "Going away twice a year - probably saving for it all year long too." "Designer clothing ON SALE". That's middle class to me. Outlet malls exist for a reason, as do savings accounts and getting good deals on vacations.

GreenEyes26

Wed, Apr 10 2013, 9:59 pm

marina wrote:

This I agree with. But I don't think the OP was really rubbing it in anyone's face, I think that woman who yelled at her was certifiable. And I REALLY don't agree with what most women on this site consider "wealth". Pizza on Thursdays? Really? That's wealth?

Cookies n Cream

Wed, Apr 10 2013, 10:01 pm

Designer clothing on sale, I can hear if you're talking about Ralph Lauren and not Burberry and Gucci.
But going away for Sukkos and Pesach which is probably close to 5000-10,000 a family?
I guess I'm a different middle class.
My saving accounts definitely don't cover that .

b from nj

Wed, Apr 10 2013, 10:04 pm

GreenEyes26 wrote:

marina wrote:

If I am not mistaken, it was the OP who considered pizza on Thursdays to be a sign of wealth...

OOTforlife

Wed, Apr 10 2013, 10:08 pm

Fox wrote:

If she is allowing herself to scream at you about this issue, it's a pretty fair bet that at least a few people are thinking the same thing.

I actually would think the opposite. If a woman is nutty enough to scream unprompted at a non-family member^ about their clothes and vacations, then I would discount pretty much anything she says and do my best to avoid her. Maybe I've just been extraordinarily fortunate or there's some sort of cultural reason, but in my experience normal people don't do this. I am struggling to think of a single time in my life when an acquaintance or coworker or classmate screamed at me about something like this that doesn't directly affect them in a tangible way (as opposed to me being late with something on a mutual project that they would be held responsible for, for example). Can't think of one.

^I think most of us can get a little nutty around even the most beloved family members once in a while.

amother

Wed, Apr 10 2013, 10:53 pm

Greeneyes, I happen to pretty much agree with everything you said. A lot of the other posts made me laugh. They definitely had a real communist/socialist vibe to them. And for the record, I am going on vacation twice this year, I dress my kids in european clothing, I have cleaning help, and I get pizza every thursday! However, I am most definitely not wealthy. Me and my husband just work really hard for our money, and therefore we get to choose how we spend it.

Maya

Wed, Apr 10 2013, 10:54 pm

marina wrote:

Maya wrote:

marina wrote:

The examples are exactly the same. Your opinions are colored by your own sensitivities and sympathies, as is everyone else's. If I read the OP correctly, she lives in a wealthy community. She surely can't be the only one with these standards.

amother

Wed, Apr 10 2013, 11:23 pm

I am really confused about the Thursday night pizza. Why is this a sign of wealth?

Jewishmofm

Wed, Apr 10 2013, 11:39 pm

Okay, so we are on a "kollel budget" (whatever that means!). We are living way below the poverty line here, and making it work. But ask my kids, and they will tell you how rich we are. Why we're so rich, we live better than kings - we have a roof over our heads, we have nourishing food to eat, we have air conditioning units in some rooms, we have a space heater. I mean, can you just imagine living in those draughty, damp, dark castles and palaces? My kids are convinced that we must be at least multi-billionaires. Because I showed them how rich in reality we are - we have torah, we have loving family, we have everything we NEED. They also excitedly share their free chol hamoed experiences with the world . . .

Raisin

Thu, Apr 11 2013, 4:36 am

Ok, I get why the Op thinks she isn't wealthy. She lives in a community where everyone has nicer houses and cars and therefore she feels she is not wealthy. Where I come from the people who can go to hotels twice a year are wealthy, or very comfortable.

(BTW to be a comfortable frum family you need a much higher level of income)

based on your later post, I am even more baffled at this womans' behaviour. Since it seems these things are normal in your community. (if so, why does this woman live there?)

saw50st8

Thu, Apr 11 2013, 5:33 am

OP, ignore the people yelling at you.

And kids get envious over stupid things, even when they have better/more. Your child hears that friend X's mom makes pizza? Why do you have to BUY pizza? It gets preposterous.

Assume this woman had a bad week, was just venting some frustration and is socially awkward in some way.

amother

Thu, Apr 11 2013, 5:57 am

GreenEyes26 wrote:

Up to here I heartily agree with and love, not like, your post. The rest, not so much. But I do agree that the jealousy here on Imamother of anyone who has something someone else can't afford is really off-putting. As is the competition to identify more luxury items that people could really do without if they were only so unmaterialistic as the poster.

harriet

Thu, Apr 11 2013, 9:46 am

Jewishmofm wrote:

How old are your kids?

amother

Thu, Apr 11 2013, 10:21 am

Cookies n Cream wrote:

GreenEyes26 wrote:

amother wrote:

Are you crazy? Do you know what "wealthy" means? Buying designer clothing on massive sales is not wealthy.Going away twice a year - probably saving the whole year for it too - is not "wealthy". Oh, and btw, getting a $15 pizza once a week and cleaning help is not "wealthy" either. It's comfortable. There's A BIG difference between "wealthy" and "comfortable".

This attitude on this site drives me crazy. I don't know if it's a mix of youth, ignorance, less education or just a misguided view that poverty = piousness, but posters will attack any OP who displays even a hint of having something they don't. Her priorities are screwed up? Nope, yours are - for mistaking middle class with the 1%.
[color=] [/color]
Oh, and I don't know why this needs to be said over and over, this woman was NUTS and the OP can do whatever she darn well wants with her own GD money.

And you know what drives me the absolute craziest? Most of the people who attack these perceived vast riches are people who don't have a lot of money because they don't have any drive to get some. It's one thing to complain about how hard things are when you're working and made reasonable life plans but it's hard in the trenches (and I know some posters do). It's very much another when you're a kollel family and you have a useless Touro college degree and your husband has no skills or education besides warming a bench in beis medrash for 12 hours a day.

It's envy, pure and simple. OP, your attackers know they won't ever be successful, and they don't have anyone to blame but themselves. So they take it out on you. Keep your chin up and buy whatever clothes you please. I wish I had the time or patience to shop around to get some good deals.

There are so many things in your post that I find totally skewed, I honestly don't even know where to start.

Going away twice a year... Designer clothing... MIDDLE CLASS?

I am not crazy.

I work at least 60 hours per week, as does my husband, both on professional positions that require graduate degrees. That doesn't give me the leisure to go to thrift shops and yard sales (which are usually on Saturday mornings in any case) to spend hours searching for bargains; that's largely a hobby of those who don't work. Tuition for our kids is in excess of $40,000 per year.

A cheap Pesach vacation for two adults and 2 children costs at least $5000. More if you're not doing a very low end program. Randomly selecting the first google result I got, the "early bird" rate was $6000 for a couple, plus $700 per kid, plus transit. Double that for a succot vacation. You're talking $10,000 to $25,000 per year for vacations alone. Add to that what the poster claims to spend on entertaining the rest of the year (ie, that those expenses are close to her weekly entertaining expenses -- I assume she's greatly exaggerating), you are talking about a wealthy person.

Which is fine. I'm thrilled for her. And she has the absolute right to spend that money as she wishes. But she should understand that it is a level of wealth that few have, that skipping a weekly pizza isn't going to add up to that kind of wealth (please remember its the MARGINAL cost of the pizza -- you would be making dinner anyway -- so you'd have to skip that pizza for what, 20 years? 30 years?, in order to take those two trips.

We have plenty of wealthy friends who jet off to Israel twice a year, in addition to their summer beach of travel vacations. Who send their kids to overnight camp, and their teens on travel tours of Israel and Europe and China over the summer. No problem. I hope they enjoy themselves. But none of them pretend that this isn't a perk of wealth, or that if I only spent less on shampoo and toothpaste, I too could afford to spend $10,000 on vacations.

And as I said, this may well bother people. Not "I went away for Pesach," or "yes, this is a Birkin," but "oh, anyone can do that."

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