Why are we supposed to actively harm our health by fasting?

amother

Ebony

Thu, Jul 27 2023, 8:18 am

amother NeonOrange wrote:

Huh? On tisha bav?
Seriously?

Yes it’s not Tom
Kippir and Simone cannot understand mental health challenges cannot answer for that person either. This is a day were supposed to let other people and if someone really thinks they can’t fast then I think you can touch them favorably. It sounds like you’re being very judgy on a day where we’re supposed to be doing the opposite.

amother

Dahlia

Thu, Jul 27 2023, 8:37 am

DVOM wrote:

I don't think we're being told to harm ourselves. Halacha very consistently rules against any sort of self harm, any perminant damage.

We are being asked to make ourselves uncomfortable. For this one day, we are asked to bring the discomfort we should be feeling for the loss of the bais hamikdash to a tangible, relatable level. We don't eat or drink, wear comfortable shoes, sit in comfortable chairs, engage in comforting activities (bathing, s-x), for 1 day. For some, that discomfort is mild and temporary, for you it lasts a week. I'm somewhere in between. Today will be a hard day, and I'll probably feel back to full strength by Sunday, Monday.

It sounds like your mixing up discomfort and danger. For most people, fasting is uncomfortable, maybe very uncomfortable, but not dangerous. I think we are so used to comfort that discomfort feels really scary.

There have been times when I've been told not to fast, because my health (mental or physical) was such that fasting could be dangerous. I trust that if someone were in danger, a doctor or Rabbi would tell you not to fast. For contrast, my relative, who had a major organ transplant a few years ago and is recently out of the hospital (admitted for complications and a minor surgery) was told that fasting for 24 hours is not dangerous, does not usually lead to dangerous dehydration, does not significantly suppress immunity, can in fact be considered a healthy 'cleanse', and he certainly can fast if he wants to (he very badly wants to!).

I think it's rather condescending to tell others that we're just experiencing discomfort because we're so used to comfort that we get scared when we experience anything other than comfort. It honestly sounds rather silly. Just thank Hashem that you and the other posters don't understand and hope that you never have to.

Ema of 5

Thu, Jul 27 2023, 8:37 am

amother Navyblue wrote:

The reason we take care of our health is because Hashem said so. It's a mitzvah.

And sometimes it's a mitzvah to do the opposite...

We are reminded that our body is not our own. It belongs to Hashem. And we are ready to do whatever Hashem wants, even if it is uncomfortable or painful. That's called Mesiras Nefesh.

It is never a Mitzvah to make ourselves sick. Uncomfortable is not the same as sick. Baruch Hashem of all the different times and rabbanim I’ve asked, I have never been told to only break my fast after it’s too late. I have been told by multiple rabbanim to only fast on Yom Kippur, and to fast as long as I can on tisha b’av, even if that means before chatzos.

amother

Navyblue

Thu, Jul 27 2023, 8:51 am

Ema of 5 wrote:

Sometimes it does.

Drinking wine at the Seder even if it makes someone sick for weeks. Giving up your life for Hashem.

Of course it's not very frequent, but sometimes Hashem does ask us to give up our health.

If you're not sure, ask a Rav. And sometimes you'll be told not to become sick, and other times maybe not.

Ema of 5

Thu, Jul 27 2023, 8:54 am

amother Navyblue wrote:

I don’t drink wine at the Seder, I’m allergic. I can’t imagine there is a rabbi who will say one should drink wine if it will make them sick. I don’t put giving up one’s life in the same category as actively making oneself sick.

DVOM

Thu, Jul 27 2023, 9:12 am

amother Dahlia wrote:

I didn't mean to condescend. This is what I think, what makes sense to me. When I dread this day and analyze why, this what I come up with that resonates.

Feel free to discard my 'rather silly' thoughts if they don't work for you.

amother

Hyacinth

Thu, Jul 27 2023, 9:59 am

I get horrible migraines from fasting. I have asked about it numerous times, and the answer I get is a sort of vague "You have to fast, but if you feel you can't continue because of your health, you have to break the fast, but at least make it to midday."

When it was just me, I was able to suffer through. Even though I felt awful, and it took me all week to recover, I could do it.

Once I had a baby, it changed. Because I can't make myself UNABLE TO CARE FOR MY CHILD because I am horribly ill with a migraine. And the migraine doesn't just go away when the fasting is over - I'll be down with that migraine the entire following day, and more days until I am back to normal. And my migraines are MUCH WORSE than before I had a baby.

I fast until midday. Sometimes, I push it a bit longer if I feel okay. I am not putting myself through blinding pain and severe neurological problems - and I don't believe for a second that Hashem wants me to.

It's easy for people who don't have health issues to act like it's easy to suffer - their suffering from fasting IS NOT the same as those of us who have serious medical conditions that are directly triggered from fasting.

amother

Junglegreen

Thu, Jul 27 2023, 10:02 am

Ema of 5 wrote:

This! This thread is baffling.

amother

Magenta

Thu, Jul 27 2023, 10:24 am

It’s so tough, I know. Only you know how you’re feeling and if it’s too much for you to continue. Some of these responses are really surprising! When someone says it’s so hard to fast it’s not very polite to respond “go watch some more tisha bav videos.” I’m really sorry you received such rude responses. Just know there is nothing wrong with ending the fast if you feel too unwell, and only you know when that point is. Much support on this difficult day!!!

amother

Magenta

Thu, Jul 27 2023, 10:26 am

amother Navyblue wrote:

You’re not supposed to drink wine if it makes you sick!! You can drink grape juice of course. Not sure where people are getting this dangerous ideas.

ectomorph

Thu, Jul 27 2023, 10:33 am

amother Magenta wrote:

You’re not supposed to drink wine if it makes you sick!! You can drink grape juice of course. Not sure where people are getting this dangerous ideas.

This is correct. It's why I mostly drink grape juice at the seder.

In many chassidish communities, women don't fast on half day fast, ever.

octopus

Thu, Jul 27 2023, 10:40 am

amother OP wrote:

Yeah, I didn't mean to put down your answer specifically, and I definitely agree with you about the bolded.

Just when people say "find a different rav" it feels a bit like heter shopping... and I know my rav's position is not unique so I don't even know where I would start looking

My father is a rav. And one time someone posted their Yom kippur story of not getting hetter and then afterwards wound up in the hospital. I had to mention this story to my dad just to get his opinion.my father was so beside himself! He said the rav was 1000% wrong. He was incredibly distraught upon hearing the story. It takes a very knowledgeable rav to be meikil. Always remember that. Its easy to pasken machmir. And when you are machmir in something, it always means you are meikil in something else.

Last edited by octopus on Thu, Jul 27 2023, 10:40 am; edited 1 time in total

amother

Hyacinth

Thu, Jul 27 2023, 10:40 am

amother Navyblue wrote:

I specifically asked, and was clearly told not to drink what would make me terribly ill for weeks. We ARE NOT supposed to damage our health - this is part of the essence of Judaism❤️

This year on Pesach, I got detailed instructions on how to drink a minimum amount of grape juice diluted in water so that I would be able to fufill this important mitzvah WITHOUT making myself ill.

We are not supposed to cause damage to our bodies. This is Torah.

Now, it is certain that normal, healthy people cannot always understand how fasting or drinking wine or any mitzvah could possibly damage anyone - B"H for such a privaledge! But those of us with chronic health issues have a very different way that we have to move through life in order to maintain basic functioning.