Tattoos and Piercings now acceptable in some frum soceity?

chummus

Mon, Sep 03 2018, 12:32 am

amother wrote:

You are making arbitrary rules.

Orthodox and yeshivish are not synonyms.

And it’s impossible that 1 earing is basically mandatory from birth (per imamother) yet two is unrefined. No. It’s just a culture norm.

What exactly is modern orthodox? You are either orthodox or you are not.

amother

Magenta

Mon, Sep 03 2018, 12:35 am

chummus wrote:

What exactly is modern orthodox? You are either orthodox or you are not.

I think it’s best we start with ‘what is orthodox’? Tell me what you think - and I’ll tell you what modern orthodox means.

amother

Navy

Mon, Sep 03 2018, 12:35 am

amother wrote:

I wouldn't call dati leumi Israelis orthodox. They are more modern orthodox than regular orthodox . Regular yeshivish orthodox women do not have multiple piercings. I have no problem with piercings but you can't call yourself orthodox . Orthodox/yeshivish women dress in a more refined manner. Double ear piercing isn't a refined look.

This is so breathtakingly offensive I don't know where to begin. You're talking about women who observe halacha. How did yeshivish Orthodox become "regular"? Are all other Jews irregular?

I hate to break it to you, but the long flowy skirts, tichels, and yes, nose rings, are far more traditionally Jewish clothing than the 1960s look of yeshivish women today.

You're certainly allowed to have your preferences. I myself have one hole per ear and none anywhere else. But my personal fashion choices don't determine whether or not I'm frum.

chummus

Mon, Sep 03 2018, 12:40 am

amother wrote:

I think it’s best we start with ‘what is orthodox’? Tell me what you think - and I’ll tell you what modern orthodox means.

Following the Torah and not deviating from what is halacha.

amother

Navy

Mon, Sep 03 2018, 12:40 am

chummus wrote:

What exactly is modern orthodox? You are either orthodox or you are not.

See above. Modern orthodoxy incorporates the world as a whole into avodas Hashem. It sees inherent value in understanding the world, and is not a new approach. The word modern is there because of that appreciation of modernity. It used to be just stam Judaism, but with the rise in of other movements, a new name became necessary.

There have been innovations in Judaism in the modern world. Chassidus is one. The kollel movement is another. These aren't necessarily negative just because they are new.

In any case, I'm not sure who made you the arbiter of what constitutes acceptable orthodoxy.

amother

Magenta

Mon, Sep 03 2018, 12:42 am

chummus wrote:

What statement was false?

Quote:

None of this is acceptable in any orthodox circles and never will be!!!

amother

Magenta

Mon, Sep 03 2018, 12:45 am

chummus wrote:

Following the Torah and not deviating from what is halacha.

Does Halacha talk about two piercings in an ear?

So modern Orthodox follows same. Different outlook though.

chummus

Mon, Sep 03 2018, 12:46 am

amother wrote:

If you feel you are not deviating from ANY Halacha wonderful!

amother

Magenta

Mon, Sep 03 2018, 12:51 am

chummus wrote:

If you feel you are not deviating from ANY Halacha wonderful!

I don’t think SHE identified herself to you with any personal hashkafa. She was providing you with factual information.

amother

Navy

Mon, Sep 03 2018, 12:59 am

amother wrote:

I don’t think SHE identified herself to you with any personal hashkafa. She was providing you with factual information.

Thanks. Indeed, I was trying to keep the conversation about ideas. There's no reason to make it personal.

Alternative

Mon, Sep 03 2018, 1:49 am

chummus wrote:

If you feel you are not deviating from ANY Halacha wonderful!

And I have to wonder if yeshivish people do not deviate from ANY halacha.

We all do our best. I am not going to write a long list of halachic problems with yeshivish society. However I am not convinced that their problematic areas (such as raising men with the expectation that the wife will support) are less of an issue than things prevalent in the MO world.

MrsDash

Mon, Sep 03 2018, 1:55 am

chummus wrote:

None of this is acceptable in any orthodox circles and never will be!!! Maybe they were baal teshuvas and didn't know any better.

My mother’s a baal teshuva and I’m pretty sure she’s lived as a frum Jew longer than many of the members here who were born frum, so that comment of yours is absolute poo.

You should alert the presses- I have multiple earrings and a stud in my nose that I’ve had for nearly 15 years(almost 10 of which was in Lakewood, where I worked at many frum establishments, some of which only hired frum Jews, and was never instructed to remove my jewelry.)

And all those exclamation marks are a bit excessive. Perhaps taking up kickboxing would be beneficial. Maybe a dash of yoga as well.

DrMom

Mon, Sep 03 2018, 2:16 am

chummus wrote:

What exactly is modern orthodox? You are either orthodox or you are not.

Yes, but surely you understand that there are Chassidic Orthodox Jews and Dati Leumi Orthodox Jews and Yeshivish Orthodox Jews and Modern Orthodox Jews and LW Orthodox Jews and RW Orthodox Jews, etc etc etc.

And you probably understand that there are different customs and modes of dress which are acceptable in each of these circles. E.g., streimels are acceptable among many Chassidic circles, but are almost never worn by Yeshivish men.

What other posters are telling you is that in some of these circles, for example, the Israeli Dati Leumi community, small nose studs or multiple ear piercings are not at all unusual and are quite accepted.

I hope that was clear.

amother

Ecru

Mon, Sep 03 2018, 3:41 am

amother wrote:

You are obviously not yeshivish if you have multiple piercings . Especially two in each ear .

And you know me in real life to say that I am not yeshivish? I said I am open minded and I don't think there is anything halachicly wrong with piercings. I make sure to take them out when I go to the mikvah. What do you want me to say to "prove" to you that I am yeshivish. My husband wears white shirts and black pants, has a full beard and long payos behind his ears and is very serious about halacha. My kids go to regular yeshivish schools. Yes believe it or not people like me do exist.

Simple1

Mon, Sep 03 2018, 6:30 am

amother wrote:

Does Halacha talk about two piercings in an ear?

So modern Orthodox follows same. Different outlook though.

And a few MO people spoke up here and said body piercings are generally not done.

imasoftov

Mon, Sep 03 2018, 6:46 am

Simple1 wrote:

And a few MO people spoke up here and said body piercings are generally not done.

I'm MO and have never done a survey myself. But yeah, a few people said X so that must be true.

amother

Slategray

Mon, Sep 03 2018, 7:55 am

watergirl wrote:

No, actually. Thats not what it means in any way. Its Torah U’Maddah, based on the teaching of R’ Shimshon Refoal Hirsch. Some people may decide to interpret halacha differently and use MO as their cover..

To clarify - Torah U'Madda is Y.U.'s motto. R' Shamshon Raphael Hirsch's was Torah im Derech Erez and they are not the same.
Don't want to go too far off topic, but there are definitely differences in worldview between the two.

mommy3b2c

Mon, Sep 03 2018, 7:57 am

amother wrote:

You clearly have no idea what orthodox means. Look it up before you post again.