Is high school-level math really important?

amother

cornflower

Mon, Oct 28 2019, 2:45 am

I really struggled with math my entire schooling. I got a perfect score in verbal, and was a bit below the 700 mark in Math on the SATs.
I entered a graduate program that was very math heavy and loved it. There was less of an emphasis on process and more on what the math means. It was business math.
If you want to understand statistics, you really need an understanding of calculus; finding the derivative is a waste of time (bc programs do that for you) but what the first second and third derivative means is really important.
The math curriculum probably is divorced from real application, because no one in the business or science world actually spends time with finding the standard deviation, the derivative, etc. It's far more important to understand what a high/low SD MEANS in terms of your data, if your mean and median are very different numbers, and which information is important.
We teach a lot of math so that students can eventually do calculus, but the actual practice of calculus (used in every hard and soft science because of statistics) is not important (unless you go on in a very specific professional direction); the understanding of calculus is. You don't need to be able to chart a function when a program does it for you. You do need to be able to look at what the program churns out and understand the graph.

Someone earlier mentioned a Freakanomics podcast on this very question- it was great. Highly recommend.

JoyInTheMorning

Mon, Oct 28 2019, 9:19 am

OP, here's a link to the Freakanomics podcast: http://freakonomics.com/podcas.....ulum/ . I haven't listened to it, but I look forward to doing so when I have some time. I see from the two-sentence description that Steve Levitt isn't arguing against teaching math. Rather, he's arguing that data fluency is crucial in today's world and should replace some of the material that is currently in the curriculum.

I believe there are several reasons that math is a central part of the high school curriculum. The first is that it's one of the few subjects in which one can (unless the system is skewed) fairly evaluate students. In language arts and in history, students can coast if they are good BS artists. Not so in math. The second is that it teaches important critical reasoning skills. In particular, doing word problems -- learning how to map questions that occur in the real world to math problems, learning how to *model* the chunk of the world that you are trying to understand in a rigorous framework -- is something that is useful in many areas, including economics, finance, chemistry, epidemiology, political science, experimental design, engineering, and physics. It's not just for computer scientists. Likewise, studying proofs in geometry teaches students how to think critically. You learn to distinguish between what you can observe and what you can demonstrate; what is assumed, and what must be proved. You learn how to justify every step in your reasoning process. It was a life-changing course. for me. Third, as a previous poster said, there are many careers that are impossible to get started in without having a good understanding of high school math. It is unfair to decide that you will not give a teenager an opportunity to go into the most lucrative careers.

I've tutored a lot too, and I know that some students will never get it. Certainly, if your students are at a third-grade math level, they are not going to get algebra or geometry. It's ridiculous to try to teach algebra to kids who are at a third-grade or even a sixth-grade math level. I don't know how to deal with this situation, but except for cases of profound learning disabilities or mental retardation, I think most kids, with proper teaching and proper support, can get to at least an eighth-grade math level. (It needs a revamping of the way math is taught in lower and middle schools, but that is not the subject of this thread, although it is certainly relevant.) I think you cannot judge whether or not today's current math curriculum is unreasonable if you are teaching kids who are way below the eighth-grade level.

All this has nothing to do with your decision to switch careers. You are not enjoying what you are doing, and the pay is much better in other STEM fields. However, there are good reasons to keep several years of high school math in the curriculum.

JoyInTheMorning

Mon, Oct 28 2019, 9:54 am

amother [ OP ] wrote:

Public inner city high school.

But even if I were teaching at the best high school in the city- what percentage of students in the U.S. are going into such fields that it is a universally required subject that makes up 50% of the SAT, and determines so much of students' academic futures?

I have a child who is an upper high school student at an academically excellent high school. While excellent, it is by far not the best high school in our metropolitan area. (Jewish schools, by their nature, are not as selective as the most rigorous prep schools. Plus, they can't offer as many secular academic courses as non-Jewish schools.) More than half of the kids are planning to go into STEM fields (physics, pre-med, engineering, computers). More than half of the others are going into fields where math is important (e.g., economics). A handful are planning to go into other fields like creative writing or film or education, and will presumably not need much math.

It makes total sense to me that math makes up 50% of the SAT.

Note, also that math makes up much less than 50% of the ACT, which is at this point accepted pretty much everywhere that the SAT is.

amother

Mon, Oct 28 2019, 10:11 am

Mommyg8 wrote:

The real reason we need high school math is to be able to take college math. Thats how I see it.

Many degrees require college algebra and/or calculus. It doesn't matter that nobody will ever ever use college algebra, precalc or calculus. It's a requirement and you can't graduate without passing math. And... you cant do well in college level math if you do not have a good high school math background.

As absurd as this sounds, this is the system in the United States today. Someone who cannot pass high school math will not be able to take college math, and will therefore not be able to receive a degree. It's that simple.

Most degrees require statistics, not more. The curriculum as it's currently structured does not focus on data analysis, which is the most critical math skill that students need. It's much more important than geometric proof or algebraic equations.

Part of my complaint is that the math curriculum is so useless, when it can be so much more fruitful and geared for what students actually do need to know.

amother

Mon, Oct 28 2019, 10:22 am

amother [ Copper ] wrote:

I think Grammar holds that title. And writing well written essays is not a feat that many students do well with either. Most community classes have remedial courses for both writing and math, because those are two subjects many do poorly in.

Is grammar even a high school subject in most schools? (It was in mine.)

Ironically, I love grammar, as well- and I know that it's connected to my love of structure, which is a strongly mathematical concept.

amother [ Copper ] wrote:

Writing is used, though, and by everyone. Not essay writing, but the structure of writing. You can tell the difference between different Imamother posters' voices based on their writing style and structure.

I used to believe that people use math skills subconsciously, but now I'm not so sure. Yes, people who actually understand math will use those skills, but they tend to be more logical people to begin with. My husband is a whiz with logic; of course he's good at math. Math didn't teach him to be logical; his inherent logical reasoning skills make him better at math, which in turn makes him even stronger in logical reasoning.

I think that if students aren't following the logical process to begin with, they won't be using it in life. You do see people who are better at math tend to generally be better at problem solving in many areas (though not always, especially if they are the absentminded professor type).

amother [ Copper ] wrote:

And to those in programming, engineering and science fields who say they don't use it - you may not use it explicitly, but you definitely use it implicitly. Whether you're writing some advanced code, engineering something or quantifying scientific results, a lot of it requires the logical reasoning and strategies of high school math. There's a reason why math & english subjects are prereqs in most degrees, and it's not just because they want the students to work hard.

I agree. Again, these people chose fields that are predicated on logical reasoning skills. However, there's a good chance that people in these fields are also at least adequate in math. I'm not advocating for eliminating math from the curriculum, just from people whose chosen future will have no connection to logical reasoning, and those who clearly cannot follow it.

I disagree completely about math and English as prerequisites, but that's because I believe that college is just a way of creating a strong barrier to entry from the workforce. That's why most fields require a master's nowadays, and that's turning into a doctorate. But that's for a whole different discussion.

amother [ Copper ] wrote:

OP - I agree with the others. It sounds like you're burnt out because you've been dealt a tough group of students.

Yes, I am burnt out from teaching because of a tough group of students. But I tutor Bais Yaakov students all the time and I grade Regents in several Bais Yaakovs and yeshivos. I see the level of understanding, or lack thereof. I also see the difference between students for whom math is difficult, but doable and those who are lost in adding and subtracting integers (which, by the way, the majority of students don't know how to do and rely on their calculators for. Ask any math teacher.).

Mommyg8

Mon, Oct 28 2019, 10:24 am

amother [ OP ] wrote:

Most degrees require only statistics? Not really. I had someone in my class who was trying to get a degree in something related to treating addictions - I don't remember which specific degree it was. She was already working in the field and was very good at what she did, but she needed that piece of paper to get the job she wanted. She failed college algebra three times, and it seems this class was keeping her back from getting her degree. Maybe different colleges have different criteria, but in the college I went to (definitely not Ivy League) college algebra was a requirement for many degrees.

Any degree which is considered "more choshuv" (sorry for speaking frumese, but I have one foot out the door so I'm rushing) will require, at the minimum, college algebra. My degree required precalc, even though it had zero relevance to the degree I was getting. Many degrees require calculus. If you will not have a background of high school math, then you are limiting yourself to the "soft" degrees.

You can have great analytical and logical skills, but without a degree you may have trouble finding a job in certain fields (not all, but some). You can really do very well in programming without any prior high school math exposure (I took programming without any background in high school math and I did just fine), but in order to get a computer science degree you will probably have to take calculus. Which is actually not needed for programming at all, but is really just used (IMO) to weed out those who can't make the cut.

amother

Mon, Oct 28 2019, 10:29 am

eschaya wrote:

What about those people who actually enjoyed HS math, even if they don't utilize it regularly as an adult? I absolutely loved geometry (especially proofs!!!), and found calculus beautiful. I know it's hard to believe, but I was not alone. And even though I almost never use these subjects in my adult life, I am forever grateful to have learned them, and want my children to be exposed to these ideas as well. Most of the things we learn in school are not solely meant as means to an end. Being an educated, well-rounded human being means that we study and find interest in a variety of subjects and ideas, even (and possibly especially) those that are less practical.

I loved every second of math class in high school. However, most of the people I know hated every second. This included my high-achieving, competitive classmates (the 30th-ranked GPA out of 64 girls in my grade was a 95, which was not the case in most classes that came before and after us). Whenever I run into people and tell them what I do, their response is inevitably, "I hate math."

amother [ Copper ] wrote:

Make a list of all the subjects students learn in HS. Chumash, navi, ivrit, halacha, bi'ur tefilah, math, biology, chemistry, physics, earth science, writing, literature, French, economics, American history, world history, geography, art, and others. Some of these are practical and necessary for the rest of our lives (conversational ivrit, hilchos shabbos, understanding tefilah, writing, basic math, local history) and others may never, or at least rarely, become relevant for the majority of students (sefer trei asar, earth science, art history, european literature, calculus 2). But some of these subjects will become practically important to a few individuals, and the rest of us will gain breadth, activate new channels and pathways in our minds, stretch us to do something harder or beyond our expected scope. If we just cared about practical usage for adult life, we could go back to the apprentice system; determine a niche that appears to suit our temperament, intelligence and abilities, and focus a few years on the practical knowledge and skills we will need in that area. I can't foresee this being a good idea to build the future.

I understand that. But what I am saying is that unlike in other subjects, there are more people who are incapable of doing math, even if they are highly competent in other areas. I know adults in high levels of the workforce who couldn't solve an equation if you paid them.

amother [ Copper ] wrote:

In school systems, it is most important to teach foundational skills well (basic communication and calculation), but then also to expand beyond that. Look, the vast majority of community pediatricians do not use organic and biochemistry in most of their patient encounters, and most will never have to remember the names of every facial muscle while engaged in practice. Yet it is still important that these courses be taught; for the few who will go on to research, teach or highly specialize, but also for every student who will have struggled, learned how to learn, and now have a very broad base of knowledge and understanding.

So teach it to those who need it. Teach it to those who are interested. Teach it to those who are capable. Give an assessment at the beginning of high school to check for students' math competency. Trust me, you'd find the majority below 7th grade level unless you're talking about a highly specialized school.

amother [ Copper ] wrote:

Call me a romantic. But I truly feel that the more human beings are encouraged to know and exposed to, the better off we will be. And while we could make 3/4 of school subjects optional (boy, did I wish gym was optional), we know that most people won't push themselves to take a course they aren't required to. And it will be their, and society's, loss.

I think you are a romantic. Go try to teach any class. Not the student body that I'm teaching. I student-taught in a much better school (Goldstein HS) and encountered many of the same issues. I see it in the students I tutor, in the people I meet.

amother [ Copper ] wrote:

OP - it sounds like you're feeling this way because of the particular student set and society you are dealing with. It sounds like at one point you believed in the value of knowledge for its own sake but have been disillusioned. I would guess that if you had the opportunity to teach inspired and motivated students, you'd feel a lot differently.
Also, I disagree with your assessment that math is the hardest subject and universally hated. This was in no way my experience (or that of any of my classmates, kids, and their friends).

I still believe in the value of knowledge for its own sake, but I find it next to impossible to impart that to the next generation of students.

Where does a class of inspired and motivated students exist? I look back at my high school class. We were inspired and motivated students. My sisters go to the same school and tell me that it's not even worth trying to teach the classes, since no one cares. And these sisters are high achievers in school.

I'd love to meet you, your classmates, kids, and friends. It would feel like stepping into an alternate universe that I'd enjoy.

Mommyg8

Mon, Oct 28 2019, 10:35 am

amother [ Copper ] wrote:

I don't think incoming college students are doing more poorly in math and writing than in other subjects, it's just that Math and English are cumulative in the sense that you can't do upper level classes without passing the lower level classes. By contrast, you can take a college level History course and do reasonably well even if you have never learned History before.

Writing is important, but honestly I think learning to write essays is not necessarily a useful skill. I don't think too many of us have ever used our essay writing skills past college. And very few of us really need to write much once we're past high school. So I'm not sure how useful a subject English is.

amother [ Copper ] wrote:

But that in no way means that we should do away with them, or less of them. Even if you don't plan on using them in life, they still are very important skills you end up using subconsciously. Writing is self explanatory, and while you may not physically do the math itself, the underlying concepts, logic, and strategical reasoning is a foundation of many other life skills. You still develop some logical & strategical skills, even if you have difficulty applying it to math. You end up applying those concepts to the other stuff that you do do. You don't realize it essentially, but math & reasoning underline so many things in life.

And to those in programming, engineering and science fields who say they don't use it - you may not use it explicitly, but you definitely use it implicitly. Whether you're writing some advanced code, engineering something or quantifying scientific results, a lot of it requires the logical reasoning and strategies of high school math. There's a reason why math & english subjects are prereqs in most degrees, and it's not just because they want the students to work hard.

Like I said earlier, I took programming before I took high school math (I learned some basic algebra but that was it) and I did just fine in my programming course. Of course this was many years ago and programming may have changed, but I don't think so. Logical reasoning is something you either have or you don't; you don't need to have learned math prior to do well in that area.

amother

Mon, Oct 28 2019, 10:35 am

amother [ Green ] wrote:

I'm not following the dichotomy presented of NYC Public school vs Bais Yaakov.

You aren't teaching a typical American highschool student a math class. You are either teaching students you can't communicate well with - or students who shouldn't be in your class to begin with (not on correct grade level). Seems you aren't really in a good position to evaluate the curriculum.

My classroom is pretty representative of a typical NYC public school room. The students won't test on 3rd grade level because they need an excuse to keep them in the high school classroom. I love reading these IEPs and seeing that the student tests on 7th grade level in math when they can't subtract 5-4.

By the way, I can evaluate the curriculum independently as an educator. I tutor all the time and view the curriculum through that light, in addition to the lens of my own classroom. I run a crash course before the Regents. The students are struggling there, too. I saw many highly intelligent students struggle through math classes.

amother

Mon, Oct 28 2019, 10:40 am

amother [ cornflower ] wrote:

I really struggled with math my entire schooling. I got a perfect score in verbal, and was a bit below the 700 mark in Math on the SATs.

I wonder what you mean by "struggle." Does that mean you were a high 90s student in everything else and a low 90s student in math? Because getting a bit below a 700 on the SAT in math is more than the majority of the students I know can accomplish.

amother [ Copper ] wrote:

I entered a graduate program that was very math heavy and loved it. There was less of an emphasis on process and more on what the math means. It was business math.
If you want to understand statistics, you really need an understanding of calculus; finding the derivative is a waste of time (bc programs do that for you) but what the first second and third derivative means is really important.

No, you do not need to understand Calculus to understand statistics. Maybe Calc I and integrals. That's about it.

amother [ Copper ] wrote:

The math curriculum probably is divorced from real application, because no one in the business or science world actually spends time with finding the standard deviation, the derivative, etc. It's far more important to understand what a high/low SD MEANS in terms of your data, if your mean and median are very different numbers, and which information is important.

There is very little discussion of that in the high school math curriculum, at least in NYC, and it's all very divorced from application. Most of the work on standard deviation is just done by plugging numbers into a calculator (clicking 2nd-Vars-normalcdf and typing in the numbers). The students have no clue what they're doing.

I agree with you that understanding of the center and spread of data is a crucial mathematical skill, but it's not emphasized in high school. If it were, perhaps I wouldn't be making this argument right now.

amother [ Copper ] wrote:

We teach a lot of math so that students can eventually do calculus, but the actual practice of calculus (used in every hard and soft science because of statistics) is not important (unless you go on in a very specific professional direction); the understanding of calculus is. You don't need to be able to chart a function when a program does it for you. You do need to be able to look at what the program churns out and understand the graph.

That doesn't take an advanced understanding of Calculus. It takes statistical knowledge, which students are ill-prepared for with the current math curriculum in NY. I don't know about other states; it could be they're doing a better job of integrating job-relevant skills into their math curricula.

amother [ Copper ] wrote:

Someone earlier mentioned a Freakanomics podcast on this very question- it was great. Highly recommend.

I will b'n listen to it when I get a chance.