Is high school-level math really important?

amother

Green

Mon, Oct 28 2019, 10:40 am

amother [ OP ] wrote:

My classroom is pretty representative of a typical NYC public school room. The students won't test on 3rd grade level because they need an excuse to keep them in the high school classroom. I love reading these IEPs and seeing that the student tests on 7th grade level in math when they can't subtract 5-4.

By the way, I can evaluate the curriculum independently as an educator. I tutor all the time and view the curriculum through that light, in addition to the lens of my own classroom. I run a crash course before the Regents. The students are struggling there, too. I saw many highly intelligent students struggle through math classes.

Okay. Just seems to me you are describing problems that have nothing to do with the math curriculum. How is the rest of New York state doing in math? Why are highly intelligent students (who don't have communication barriers) struggling with math?

amother

Mon, Oct 28 2019, 10:42 am

amother [ Babyblue ] wrote:

I am not a math teacher and I will tell you why. You cannot catch up to h.s. math once you are out of high school. These kids who don't get it solid are being ROBBED of careers and jobs they might enjoy very much!

Physics, engineering, programming are examples of nice Jewish type value careers that need these maths. I bet I could come up with quite a few more examples very very easily.

My dd is studying for software engineering and uses all the math you'd think you would never need, nephew studying for architecture uses all the geometry.

Are they being robbed of it? Or are they simply not cut out for those careers to begin with?

I know that there is a lot of incompetent math teaching around, since those who excel in math enough to be interested in teaching it are often not the best communicators. It's so obvious to them that they don't understand why others don't understand. However, not all math teachers are incompetent, and you'll still see a lot of confusion in any classroom.

My husband also uses math in his software engineering. I'm not arguing that people going into those careers should learn the math. But when someone is struggling so mightily with a basic equation, that is usually a good indication that they will not be cut out for a career like that.

amother

Ruby

Mon, Oct 28 2019, 10:49 am

Only a few decades ago, this kind of advanced learning wasn't considered necessary. What changed, and is it really worth it?

amother

Mon, Oct 28 2019, 10:49 am

JoyInTheMorning wrote:

OP, here's a link to the Freakanomics podcast: http://freakonomics.com/podcas.....ulum/ . I haven't listened to it, but I look forward to doing so when I have some time. I see from the two-sentence description that Steve Levitt isn't arguing against teaching math. Rather, he's arguing that data fluency is crucial in today's world and should replace some of the material that is currently in the curriculum.

I have made the same argument to my co-teacher time and time again over the last two years, as I investigated other careers in math. I see how critical data fluency is in the workforce. But that's simply not a large part of the curriculum as is. And as long as the curriculum is still teaching the abstract skills that are not as important, I maintain my doubts as to whether or not they're that critical to teach to the entire student population for three or four years of high school.

JoyInTheMorning wrote:

I believe there are several reasons that math is a central part of the high school curriculum. The first is that it's one of the few subjects in which one can (unless the system is skewed) fairly evaluate students. In language arts and in history, students can coast if they are good BS artists. Not so in math. The second is that it teaches important critical reasoning skills. In particular, doing word problems -- learning how to map questions that occur in the real world to math problems, learning how to *model* the chunk of the world that you are trying to understand in a rigorous framework -- is something that is useful in many areas, including economics, finance, chemistry, epidemiology, political science, experimental design, engineering, and physics. It's not just for computer scientists. Likewise, studying proofs in geometry teaches students how to think critically. You learn to distinguish between what you can observe and what you can demonstrate; what is assumed, and what must be proved. You learn how to justify every step in your reasoning process. It was a life-changing course. for me. Third, as a previous poster said, there are many careers that are impossible to get started in without having a good understanding of high school math. It is unfair to decide that you will not give a teenager an opportunity to go into the most lucrative careers.

You can fairly evaluate students' mathematical skills because they are not subjective. However, that is not evaluating the students' broader capabilities. There are many students with excellent skills in other subject areas who struggle with math, and they are unfairly penalized for that every step of the way. (One friend of mine comes to mind. I was accepted to the Macaulay Honors program at Brooklyn College, and she wasn't. We are equally intelligent, but I am very good at math, and she struggles with it.)

Again, I'm not saying to block all or even most students out of mathematically-related careers. But if a student is stuck on Algebra I (or even below an 80, which is the bare minimum of competence- it means you know 66% of the material), is it necessary to push them forward? Do you think they have a chance of competing in those careers that require the heavy math skills if they're still stuck on Algebra I?

JoyInTheMorning wrote:

I've tutored a lot too, and I know that some students will never get it. Certainly, if your students are at a third-grade math level, they are not going to get algebra or geometry. It's ridiculous to try to teach algebra to kids who are at a third-grade or even a sixth-grade math level. I don't know how to deal with this situation, but except for cases of profound learning disabilities or mental retardation, I think most kids, with proper teaching and proper support, can get to at least an eighth-grade math level. (It needs a revamping of the way math is taught in lower and middle schools, but that is not the subject of this thread, although it is certainly relevant.) I think you cannot judge whether or not today's current math curriculum is unreasonable if you are teaching kids who are way below the eighth-grade level.

As you said, if most students can get to an 8th grade math level, it begs the question of why we advance all students beyond that, instead of trying to bring them up to that 8th grade level of competence.

Don't get me started on the way math is taught in lower and middle schools. That is one of the issues with the way students come to high school; they've been taught by teachers who don't know how to impart numeracy.

JoyInTheMorning wrote:

All this has nothing to do with your decision to switch careers. You are not enjoying what you are doing, and the pay is much better in other STEM fields. However, there are good reasons to keep several years of high school math in the curriculum.

True. I still think that we can knock out some of the necessity or at least revamp the curriculum to focus on statistics and data analysis.

amother

Ruby

Mon, Oct 28 2019, 10:50 am

There is also a kind of survivor bias when looking at a higher level high school education. There is a stark contrast between those who do well in school and those who don't, but is it because those who do well gain so much from the experience, or because everyone else has their spirits crushed?

amother

Green

Mon, Oct 28 2019, 10:55 am

Quote:

We are equally intelligent, but I am very good at math, and she struggles with it.)

How can you evaluate that sort of thing?

DrMom

Mon, Oct 28 2019, 10:59 am

I find the proposals being discussed here to be disturbing in the extreme:

1. Math develops logical reasoning, but studying math beyond algebra is only useful for people who are already good at logical reasoning. If you are not good at logical reasoning, you can never become better at logical reasoning, and it is futile to try.

2. The ability to express oneself in written form is not a skill which most people need. Why bother to teach that? People rarely need to express themselves in written form past high school.

It's rather frightening that people -- educators no less! -- are advocating for a populace with no logical reasoning skills and no writing skills. There is a quote (some say erroneously) attributed to Thomas Jefferson:

"An educated citizenry is a vital requisite for our survival as a free people."

I shudder to think what would become of the US if we followed the cynical perspectives of some of the posters here.

It sounds like you are basically giving up on those who do not excel scholastically at an early age.

amother

Ruby

Mon, Oct 28 2019, 11:03 am

DrMom wrote:

Arguing that what used to be college level math and writing shouldn't be forced on all high schoolers is not saying that citizenry should be uneducated. I don't believe that people should use an entire bar of soap every time they shower; that doesn't make me opposed to hygiene, it just means that there can be too much of a good thing.

cbg

Mon, Oct 28 2019, 11:03 am

How many careers do you need to repeat vs of Shakespeare?

DrMom

Mon, Oct 28 2019, 11:08 am

amother [ Ruby ] wrote:

Arguing that what used to be college level math and writing shouldn't be forced on all high schoolers is not saying that citizenry should be uneducated.

Basic essay writing "used to be college level?"

The opposite is true: Colleges teach basic writing as remedial topics; students used to be expected to master these topics is high school.

amother

Ruby

Mon, Oct 28 2019, 11:10 am

DrMom wrote:

Basic essay writing "used to be college level?"

Nobody said that. Basic essay writing can be and often is taught in elementary or middle school.

amother

Cyan

Mon, Oct 28 2019, 11:16 am

Why teach English classics in HS? When are you going to need A Tale of 2 Cities or Hamlet in real life? Why do I need to know about different types of rocks or that I breathe out carbon dioxide? Do I need to know about Magellan or Marco Polo?

Why is OP only picking on math?

amother

Green

Mon, Oct 28 2019, 11:17 am

amother [ Cyan ] wrote:

Because she is a math teacher.

amother

Mon, Oct 28 2019, 11:25 am

amother [ Green ] wrote:

"Perhaps more kids will be taking advantage of that option statewide, as statewide Algebra Regents pass rates fell from 74.7% in 2016-2017 to 69.8% in 2017-2018." This is to get a 65, which means that the students know less than 1/3 of the material on the exam.

The test adds up to a raw score of 86 and then has a conversion chart. A raw score of 86 converts to a 100 scaled score. A raw score of 27 converts to a 65 scaled score. And still, a 70% pass rate.

The rates of students who actually know something are lower.

I don't know why so many people seem to have a mental block when it comes to math. It seems to me that there are really different intelligences on different sides of the brain, and that some people have a deficiency in that area even if the other areas are well-developed. I honestly don't know. My co-teacher would kill me for writing this, since he's a huge proponent of growth mindset. But from what I understand, studies of growth mindset have shown that it doesn't make a significant difference.

amother

Mon, Oct 28 2019, 11:27 am

amother [ Green ] wrote:

Quote:

We are equally intelligent, but I am very good at math, and she struggles with it.)

How can you evaluate that sort of thing?

Our scores were the same in every other area.

Writing is subjective, so it's extremely hard for me to give you an objective measure of her intelligence from that angle. But her writing was off the charts. Her SAT score in Reading was the same as mine, and her Writing score was higher than mine (even though mine was quite high).

amother

Green

Mon, Oct 28 2019, 11:32 am

amother [ OP ] wrote:

And you are great at math - and she isn't.

So if your judgement of intelligence is linked to SAT scores - you are clearly much more intelligent than she is.

amother

Babyblue

Mon, Oct 28 2019, 11:45 am

Majority of math teachers are HORRIBLE at teaching, therein lies the problem. Not everyone is a savant at math or on the spectrum and can self teach. Many math whizzes are the LAST people who should be teaching it. Teaching requires first, that you are suited to deal with children socially and second that you are skilled at breaking down complex information into little parts and SUCCESSFULLY (85% of students at 85%+) transmitting the skills.
Many students are " horrible at math" because they gave up due to bad teaching. Even some laggers could get it with proper help, and I don't mean resource rooms who employ those no better than.the teachers.
You cannot know what I a child will want to do as an adult therefore its wrong to take away this foundation to many careers. In NYC you only need 2 years of this type of math then you are given a choice usually of choosing business math/ life skill math or continuing to trig and algebra 2.

I have personally seen math failures become A students in math with GOOD TEACHING. Many times.
Problem is in a classroom you inheret all the previous teaching failures. Many many many times I have seen math teachers who do NO Repetition of skills, you got it the first day?
Great we move on.

You OP can't spend a month on lower elementary school math followed by 3 months on upper elementary school math with dejected students who have given up and complete the 9 th grade curriculum successfully and on time unless you are a miracle worker.

amother

Emerald

Mon, Oct 28 2019, 11:56 am

Was gonna say...knowledge of subject matter is just 1 piece of being a successful teacher.
Teaching is really an art, just being smart is not enough.
But having so many levels in 1 class, with some so far below grade level is going to tie the hands of even the most effective teacher.
Differentiation and heterogeneous grouping is the current educational trend that is way overhyped. Eventually, things will swing back to leveled classes and more resource room pull out, etc
But, op, doesn't sound like you can stick it out that long. I get it, I really do.
Maybe you could look into becoming a math coach or working in an elementary or middle school.

nicole81

Mon, Oct 28 2019, 12:33 pm

amother [ Emerald ] wrote:

I have had so many thoughts going through this thread over the past day that I just don't have the time to get into, nor do I want to be insulting... But yeah, content matter expertise is important but in a high needs public high school, it is definitely not the most important element of successful teaching.

Also I disagree with you; differentiation actually is extremely important. In a nutshell, people learn in different ways, and when they have choice in the matter, they're more invested in their learning which leads to greater success.

But, specifically as a math content specialist, I almost always recommend homogeneous groupings. Groupings can change every other day if needed, but I agree that heterogeneous grouping is definitely not preferred in HS mathematics.

Now, unrelated to the post I quoted, and I'm sure this was stated, but HS math is needed to be eligible for a number of careers across a variety of areas, based on the college requirements.

There's also research that supports the idea that if students are in an AP course, even if they don't pass the test, they are more likely to graduate college than students of the same demographics that never took an AP course. Exposing students to increasingly rigorous instruction is just plain ethical. Thinking that a bunch of kids who came into high school as level 1 or 2 don't need or shouldn't take higher math is going to further marginalize them. Maybe they won't end up using or needing it. But maybe they will, and either way, the more we appropriately challenge our children, the greater the chance they have to succeed in life.

Last edited by nicole81 on Mon, Oct 28 2019, 12:50 pm; edited 1 time in total

amother

Mon, Oct 28 2019, 12:35 pm

DrMom wrote:

I was not the one who said not to teach writing.

I am not either saying to cut out math education. Simply to either revamp the curriculum to make it more accessible and relevant, or cut it out at the point for certain students at the point which it is no longer accessible.