Frum kids in public school, not by choice

amother

Sun, Feb 07 2010, 9:21 pm

Are there many kids in your city in public school b/c yeshivos won't have them?

Background: In my OOT community, the three schools accept just about every child and work with his/her issues, sometimes successfully, sometimes not. There are no Jewish special ed day schools, so the schools feel, correctly, that they have no choice.

In my children's community (large, OOT, three Orthodox schools), there are many kids in public school b/c they are thrown out of yeshiva. My grandchild is one of them. Many are homeschooled for the same reason. My grandchild was in the-grade-before- first (It has a different name in every school) when he was expelled. Whatever his problems are, they aren't that extreme. He did well in camp, and now, in public school, they don't even have him in any special ed, so how bad could he be?

How is it in other cities? (not including ones with Jewish special ed schools)

benchwarmer

Sun, May 02 2010, 5:40 pm

I'm from NY five towns area and I have a child that goes to public school while my other sons go to an all boys yeshivah. Our son has high functioning autism and we don't want to overload him academically so that is why it is our decision to opt for the public school. He is a first grader and is B'H mainstreamed in a regular first grade class. He used to be in a small class of 8 with children who had disabilities like down syndrome and more severe/moderate autism.

I know that there isn't a yeshiva in town that would take him anyway though unless we were to pay for a shadow which is too costly for us. I know of other people who have a shadow and their kids aren't even on the spectrum. One child who I know is so much more severe than my child and he attends yeshiva but has a shadow that is paid for by the district because he gets one in a public school classroom, ironically my child doesn't and that is why we can't do it, bec. the cost would be exorbitant for us. The tuition here for a 1st grader is 11k as of next year to give you an idea and a shadow would cost I believe an additional 10-15k. Because we pay full tuition, we are simply unable to afford a shadow. I work with him extensively in the Hebrew and as he gets older we'll be getting a Rebbi, right now I can still handle it and I work with him everyday in both English and Hebrew. It makes me very sad and angry that he can't attend yeshiva because his public school doesn't feel he needs a shadow and he is successful there w/out one, but in yeshiva I strongly suspect we would be required to get one.

We are hoping that one day when he has better coping skills that he will be able to attend a yeshiva. There is a program here called Cahal that has small classes throughout the various yeshivas but that was not an option for us because he really doesn't issues learning B'H, his is about coping skills and socialization.

Last edited by benchwarmer on Sun, May 02 2010, 5:45 pm; edited 1 time in total

benchwarmer

Sun, May 02 2010, 11:15 pm

Thanks so much for your encouragement Valley, it means so much to me, I have to tell you I teared up reading it. I feel like a lot of people don't understand our decision to send him to public school (what about the X-mas I hear all the time) but we really believe he is in an environment where he is understood and is supportive of him and he's getting a solid education. My husband is also hesitant to spend on his yeshiva education when we may need that money for him later on down the road if let's say he is an adult that needs financial assistance, his future is much more unpredictable compared to a typical youngster. We are setting up a trust for him just in case he needs more one day down the line. It goes much deeper than them singing Jingle Bells in public school lol. But it breaks our heart because we wonder if our decision to send him to public school will eventually cause him to be ostracized from the religious community bec. he will be lacking in his dating resume that he attended a public school. We've gone back and forth so many times, we probably talk about it everyday, but my dh sticks to his guns that he feels public school, a Jewish populated one is the best fit for him. He won't be loaded academically with a dual curriculum and he will be in an environment that is tolerant of his disability (not making him get a shadow etc.) Our goal ultimately is to give him the best tools to function independently in the real world and I hate to admit it(bec. it is my heart's desire to see him in yeshiva) but I think public school is where he would get that.

Right now he is not in a very Jewish school ( 1 girl and 3 other boys that are Jewish in his class of 18, one boy also has autism who will most likely go to yeshiva as he comes from a very wealthy family who can easily afford the shadow). Actually though the people that work in his school are mostly Jewish, even some are frum, the most amazing and beautiful principal, the psychologist, a lot of the teachers including his current, and his speech therapist. But there is a light at the end of the tunnel bec. we are planning on moving to the neighboring school district in two years when he is a going into 4th grade which is 90% or more secular Jewish, (a lot of Israeli and Russian Jews) so we feel that even though it's not religious, at least he'll be with other yiddin which is what's important to us.

The cost of living is so expensive here in the 5T area, tuition in particular, that we were entertaining moving to the Monsey area for next year, that is how I found this message board because I was researching Chinuch in that area. Well when I spoke with a real estate agent today and she told me about the public schools, I just got a pit in my stomach about sending him to a predominantly non Jewish school, I couldn't do it.

Thanks again for reading and for your support Smile

amother

Mon, May 03 2010, 1:49 am

Oysa: My heart goes out to you. I admire you for having the courage of your convictions. Your story is painful and also ironic.

Some random thoughts:

As painful as it is, I so understand how my children (I am the OP- original poster) don't want to take my grandson out of public school where he is doing well, and they like him, and risk exposing him to the negativity and tension he was subjected to in his former yeshiva. What doe s that say about that yeshiva? And how can they- his former "morah" and the hanhala- sleep at night? Yes, they do know what's happening with him.

Still, one thing frum kids in publc school almost always learn, sooner or later is, Shver tzu zein a Yid. It's hard to be a Jew. And they can't afford to learn that. ..school treats... sports...birthday parties... Ironically, my grandson is the only Caucasian child in his class, so he is sort of protected from assimilation, in a way.
I hope.

Why do shadows cost so much? My son was quoted 20k for my grandson. I don't make that much. Do you? Why do they? I know someone who shadows her own child. That wouldn't work for most people, but listen to this: two mothers whose children need shadows could shadow each other's child, for free, barter style!

It makes me mad to hear people say, oh it's not so bad, he can have tutors, etc. If my son and daughter-in-law can give my grandson all the Torah education he needs after school in their spare time, then something is wrong with the system. But of course they can't. An entire generation was lost to yiddishkeit 'cuz "good enough" wasn't good enough.

Hatzlacha Rabba to all of our courageous children and their parents.

mandksima

Mon, May 03 2010, 4:11 am

We lived in NJ before aliyah and my two 5 year olds were qualified to receive special ed in a public school setting. We wanted them in the local Jewish school but the school was not willing to work with them. Or not able. They were not willing to try because they had other kids to concentrate on. I blame the system, not the teachers who did try. Anyway, we worked out sending to each school half a day. I worked at the school so was there for any problems. I had to carpool them back and forth which was tricky. They didn't really have friends partly because they were socially awkward and didn't really fit in anywhere.

We pulled them out of the Jewish school towards the end of the school year as we wanted them to receive the therapies as much as possible and benefit from the small class. We didn't know at that stage that our kids were being declassified from special ed and if we kept them in public school, they would be in the regular class without therapy. We decided to make aliyah right then as the Jewish school couldn't do anything for them and I knew they still needed more attention from a small class and therapies and were only declassified because they were on the higher end of the special ed standards. We were making aliyah as there really was no choice in their education. At their young age, I didn't mind them being in the public school system as much as I would come the following years.

In Israel, they were accepted immediately into the special ed gan. They flourished like never before. They learned the language within a few months. They received all the therapies and had friends and loved their teachers (they never did in the States and were scared to be left at school as they felt all alone.) They are different children today. I can't believe that they get all this here for FREE (we pay fees, not tuition) and the only option I had in the States was a Jewish private special ed school that cost $30K each. This coming year, my dd is being mainstreamed into the regular class after four intense years of catching up and improving in every way. Her history of special ed is even wiped off her record and they are so professional about it. I couldn't be happier with their education.

I can't say our way would work for everyone but it was the only way for my kids to get their educational needs fulfilled in a religious Jewish setting for nominal cost. The education has gone beyond our wildest dreams and it had come to the point that we would have even sent to a non-religious place here if need be that still was Jewish. Still better than public school in the States. B"H, the school here is perfect religiously and they have friends on the same wavelength.

As a side note, before we moved locations in NJ, we lived in a different county and had a better setting for public school education. We had quite a few parents that send their children into the school and so not only was class half religious, the teacher was frum and so were the therapists. We lucked out and were assured that the kids were only getting the kosher food they brought with them and didn't learn X-mas songs, etc. We didn't realize when we moved that we would be losing all of that and with a shorter school day as well. We naively didn't know to look into that and assumed it would be the same in another part of the same state. B"H, we made aliyah and I try not to look back at that slip of sanity I had that propelled me to move out of a great situation into a no-so-great one.

benchwarmer

Mon, May 03 2010, 12:55 pm

PinkFridge wrote:

Oysa, a dear family friend made a similar choice and felt very at peace. The kids who were in their child's class had good middos, concerned parents, and an on the ball staff. And there were a fair amount of Jews there too, not all affiliated but enough that the school was pretty careful about the greater cultural issues.

Firstly you have such a cute user name Smile

I think I'm on my way to feeling at peace about it, at least about his public school being mostly Jewish, the district that we would be moving to. At the end of the day I say to myself how can I be angry when he's come so far, I should be smiling ear to ear on that alone. I'm not angry with Hashem but with the yeshiva system. A special ed. yeshiva like Cahal is not a good fit, I was advised not to do it by the autism expert at his school, he needs typical role models for the type of disability he has where conversational skills are lacking and academically he seems to be fine w/ the exception of possible future areas in math/spatial concepts, I suspect he may one day struggle with that. The reality is that I am greedy and I want more than for him to just be mainstreamed in public school, I want a yeshiva education for him that suits him. I wish there were a yeshiva for kids with high functioning autism and ocd type disorders. I feel a little cheated, not because I have a child with autism because his is a blessing and I have learned so much from him. He has a pure neshama, and I will say that I attribute it to his disability in that he sees the world differently, his has a different order and he seems to naturally define his world with Jewish eyes. Any food he is given, his first words are, "What bracha?" For some reason despite his having memorized the brachas since he's a toddler, he still needs the reassurance of which one, I just say the ending word ie. adama, mezoynoys etc. He is so sensitive to even hearing secular music or seeing something not tznius, if my middle son is looking at something on you tube and there is even a hint of something, my older son will give his rebuke, "that's not tznius, I don't want you to watch that". My dh doesn't believe in this sort of thing but I do, I believe that he is a gilgul of a tzaddik who needed to come back. I don't think this of my other children even if I think they are good boys, there's is more learned than innate from what I've seen. That's a topic for a new thread, lol, do you believe in gilgulim and if so what do you think your gilgul is?

I am a huge rambler and I've lost my whole point why I feel cheated. I feel so angry at the yeshiva system, like the OP mentions at why her grandchild doesn't 'fit' into their system when in a public school setting he is mainstreamed, why, Why, wHy, whY? can't my sweet little tzaddik boy and her grandchild and many others, go to yeshiva? I too feel that these yeshiva menahelim have who to answer to as to why this system lets down families. There are no bells and whistles for my son in his classroom, my son does everything the other secular kids do in his class and in reading he even excels above his grade, but yet in yeshiva it just wouldn't work?! I hope I don't become bitter, it is my constant struggle.

benchwarmer

Mon, May 03 2010, 1:38 pm

PinkFridge wrote:

I just read the book Hidden Gems. I'm sure you're on enough support groups etc. to have heard similar stories but you have a strong, for want of a better word, mesorah of people who have to make difficult decisions. It sounds like you have made an informed decision. The angst is normal, but if it goes on too long, well, that's the problem. You should be able at some point to go on, and to go on b'simcha. Pardon me if I'm a bit "shtark" but you are a good person, and don't need to carry the guilt and burden. Definitely not alone, and I hope that we've all helped ease things for you in some way and that you feel lighter.

I'm actually not on any support groups, my support comes from dh, we've leaned on each other through out the whole journey. It is sad but I found from my personal experience it hard to get support from other parents with frum kids who have special needs bec. there is such a range of disability. What right do I have to complain about my situation and 'problems' when other moms whose kids are non verbal, have mr etc. I tried with various moms who have kids who have autism and it just didn't work Crying

I didn't come on strong either, I just made myself open and available if they wanted to talk and maybe I talked to one or two at length over the phone but nothing came of it, both work and are busy I'm sure. My two good friends irl have been there for me and been a sounding board. I think about starting a support group just for parents in my area who send to public school in particular. Maybe I will do that when I feel the courage. I appreciate being heard here, thanks for listening. I definitely need to get over that 'guilt' thing, dh is over it and he helps me.

PinkFridge

Mon, May 03 2010, 4:32 pm

oysa-avakesh wrote:

PinkFridge wrote:

What about Asperger's groups?

benchwarmer

Mon, May 03 2010, 11:04 pm

PinkFridge wrote:

oysa-avakesh wrote:

PinkFridge wrote:

What about Asperger's groups?

Thanks for the helpful suggestion. Smile

I know eventually as he matures and encounters different situations I will be going this route. There is a saying about coming over on different ships but being in the same boat, can't think of it, but somehow I feel it is fitting in terms of having kids on the spectrum bec. of the wide range in abilities.

amother

Tue, Nov 23 2010, 11:31 am

I am glad I found this thread… It’s good to see that I am not alone… My ds was expelled from his yeshivah for “behavior issues”. Basically, the morah kept complaining from day one about my ds not sitting still. She said my ds must be evaluated asap. We went to the agency that she suggested right away and my son was evaluated. He did not get ANY services. The teacher said that she cannot deal with him unless we provide a shadow. I cannot afford to hire a shadow. I don’t think my ds needs a shadow. He is just a regular 5 y.o. boy.
I had no choice but to send him to public school. The teachers love my son. I’ve been hearing only good things about him.
However, it breaks my heart that my ds is not getting a Jewish education… Especially now, before the legal holidays… I plan on putting my ds back to yeshivah in a couple of years when his behavior is going to be “good enough” for the yeshivah setting.
I am wondering how can I involve my son in something Jewish. I try to read him Jewish stories every day, but I feel like that is not enough. I would love to send him to any Sunday program, or after school program to learn something about Judaism. Is there such a thing? If your child is in PS, could you please give me any advise on what/how to teach my child?
Thanks