Jews/non jews/converts

happy2beme

Thu, Jun 29 2006, 2:25 pm

Quote:

Nope, in my circles we only ask for very important problems

ruchel, I dont have time right now I just want to explain somethign about asking rabbonim questions.
I was at a simcha - & the man explained- aseh licha rav. y? what's the reason? after 120, a person will be shown their accounts & will be asked: how come u didn't do this, how come u didn't daven this amount, how come u went to work & didn't learn full-time, how come u didn't have 12 kids- thats what u were supposed to do & u didnt!

the person can reply: I asked a rav & he told me what to do: not to daven everything so can take care of kids, don't have 12 kids since can't handle it.... if it's the man: I asked a rav & he said to try to make a parnassah..

the point is- asking a rav absolves you. They keep u on the right derech, the right path. If u r going to do s/t important, ask a rav- & if he advises u wrongly (l'moshel) - it's not ur fault! bec u did what's right & asked a rav!
I hope this is clear- didnt have so much time
please tell me if u understand what I wrote

we are human & we make mistakes but if we ask a rav (& listen)- then it's
not our fault & we are not liable!!

Ruchel

Thu, Jun 29 2006, 2:34 pm

happy2beme wrote:

I don't get it. Ruchel, you make the whole France sound like they're (much less than) MO & ur the most religious one there. There has to be Orthodox ppl in France- people who cover their hair, people who are tznius, people who ask rabbanim questions. Are there? Do they live so far away from you? I don't get it.

Yes, the average Jew in France is far from Orthodox.
In France I am considered (modern) Orthodox, but my circles would be more traditionalist/Mo than really full MO. My family is indeed one of the most frum in the community although they're not "full" MO, and my husband and I probably the frummest couple of the town (2nd of the community maybe), definitely frummer than the head of the community although he went to yeshiva.

The only Jews who cover their hair completely are ultra Orthodox here. Mo who are machmir with tsnius are tsnius (by the way I am definitely considered tsnius and covering my hair).
Only ultra Orthodox people ask other questions than contraception or big chinuch problems.

I don't know any French ultra Orthodox personally, but I know where they live in Paris because I go to their restaurants, about 35 kms from here. There are a few Lubavich closer. But I just don't see myself asking someone I don't know.

Ruchel

Thu, Jun 29 2006, 2:37 pm

happy2beme wrote:

Quote:

Nope, in my circles we only ask for very important problems

If I had a rav maybe I would ask him even though we don't do that in my circles. But I just can't ask a stranger. My parents have a rav in Paris but we almost never see him, the last time my father called him was to ask him to tell me not to go to the seminary X because I wouldn't beelieve him when he said it was for BTs (finally he was right, it was). I also know my dad called a Lubavich rav for something else, can't remember why. But really, I don't see myself doing that...

Ruchel

Thu, Jun 29 2006, 3:45 pm

Quote:

We have a few rabbonim whom we call who are not in our community; we call rabbonim from other cities with certain questions.

This is great, but not the kind of things I'm used to. I would only do with something that would be for me a huge problem. And I'm already happy to be on that level when I see that many people who are considered MO take the pill without asking anyone.

Quote:

Driving on Shabbos has nothing to do with this.

It has. Here the only way to see one is to go to a bigger shul for shabbes. Some people think they would rather have a rav and drive, some don't. There is the same dilemma for people who live in really small town, even worse, the choice is shul for shabbes = driving.

Crayon210

Thu, Jun 29 2006, 3:49 pm

Ruchel wrote:

It's not proper to be "happy to be on the level..."

You can't live your life saying that since you're better than others around you, then you don't have to strive for a higher level.

Complacency is not the Jewish way.

Quote:

Driving on Shabbos has nothing to do with this.

You can CALL a rav. Or E-MAIL a rav. You don't have to see him on Shabbos, or ever.

In fact, neither my husband nor I have ever met a number of the rabbonim that we consult with. We wouldn't know these men if we fell over them in the street! And that's okay, I don't need to know what Rav so-and-so looks like, I just need to know that he's a reliable rav.

Ruchel

Thu, Jun 29 2006, 4:09 pm

Quote:

It's not proper to be "happy to be on the level..."

I think everyone is happy on their level, be it secular or Orthodox, or we would all be at the highest level.
For the moment, I really don't see myself becoming frummer, it is already difficult enough. Not to mention it would make life unbearable for those living with me. And yes, I am happy with my level and I think most of the things I do are at least acceptable.

Quote:

You can't live your life saying that since you're better than others around you, then you don't have to strive for a higher level.

I was already frummer than people around me when I was on my parents' level, and already considered a bit fanatic, esp. for an Ashkenazic girl with many relatives who died during the Shoah. But I wasn't that happy with my level and decided to be frummer than my parents (not "better", proportionally they're much better than I am). Now, I wouldn't be comfortable with being even frummer, sorry.

Quote:

Complacency is not the Jewish way.

Not even answering to that, obviously you don't have to drive for hours to have kosher meat or go to the mikve. Many people wonder why I bother with that in such conditions.

Quote:

You can CALL a rav. Or E-MAIL a rav.

Which one? Just the first email I find online?

Quote:

I just need to know that he's a reliable rav.

How do you know? I thought dh's cousin was a reliable rav and discovered he was unable to answer a question that I was able to, and that I had to find the reference for him.

Crayon210

Thu, Jun 29 2006, 4:20 pm

Ruchel wrote:

I'm not talking about labels, I'm talking about avodas Hashem. We should always be striving, not sitting happy with where we're holding at the present.

Quote:

Again, I'm not talking about "frummer" and saying people should be working on the colors of their napkins and the pillows on their couches. I'm talking about your relationship with Hashem.

Quote:

Complacency is not the Jewish way.

Not even answering to that, obviously you don't have to drive for hours to have kosher meat or go to the mikve. Many people wonder why I bother with that in such conditions.

I don't understand what this has to do with anything.

Quote:

You can CALL a rav. Or E-MAIL a rav.

Which one? Just the first email I find online?

No...I mean you don't have to know the rav in person, you can often contact people through the telephone or through e-mail, even if they live far away.

Quote:

I just need to know that he's a reliable rav.

How do you know? I thought dh's cousin was a reliable rav and discovered he was unable to answer a question that I was able to, and that I had to find the reference for him.

There are certain rabbonim who I have been referred to by those I trust, and some rabbonim are well known in my community to be respected. I don't mean looking in the phone book and picking a name at random. Obviously this takes a little bit of work, but it's not impossible-and it's DEFINITELY very important for a frum family to have a rav.

Ruchel

Thu, Jun 29 2006, 4:35 pm

Quote:

I'm talking about your relationship with Hashem.

Oh, I wasn't talking about this. Yes I agree that this should always be worked on.

Quote:

I don't understand what this has to do with anything.

Complacency would be saying "this is too far, so I'm sure G-d understands if I don't go". I'm actually happy with the amount of efforts I'm making.

Quote:

There are certain rabbonim who I have been referred to by those I trust, and some rabbonim are well known in my community to be respected.

This is the difference with me. People I trust don't have a rav, and people in my community isn't frum enough to have a personal rav, or even to call a rav except for life and death matters.

Quote:

I don't mean looking in the phone book and picking a name at random. Obviously this takes a little bit of work, but it's not impossible

I will think about ways, but if I don't pick a random rav I don't really see what I can do.

Quote:

and it's DEFINITELY very important for a frum family to have a rav.

I agree it's good, although I don't necessarily agree with what needs to be asked or not.

Crayon210

Thu, Jun 29 2006, 4:39 pm

Ruchel wrote:

Complacency would be saying "this is too far, so I'm sure G-d understands if I don't go". I'm actually happy with the amount of efforts I'm making.

That's called complacency.

Quote:

This is the difference with me. People I trust don't have a rav, and people in my community isn't frum enough to have a personal rav, or even to call a rav except for life and death matters.

Just because your community is on a certain level doesn't mean you have to remain there with them. Confused

Quote:

I will think about ways, but if I don't pick a random rav I don't really see what I can do.

You can ask people on a similar level of frumkeit who they would call. Or you can find out who people call for "life and death" matters.

Quote:

I agree it's good, although I don't necessarily agree with what needs to be asked or not.

Well, the discussion here is about geirus issues. I can't believe there'd even be a debate about asking a rav for guidance in this area.

Ruchel

Thu, Jun 29 2006, 4:48 pm

Quote:

That's called complacency.

I'm not the "always unhappy" kind. What do you want me to do? Find a mikve even farther? Switch to glatt and cholov yisroel just to make life even more difficult? It's not my thing.

Quote:

Just because your community is on a certain level doesn't mean you have to remain there with them.

I was never on their level, and left my parents' level long ago, years before bas mitsvo.
But I'm not going to go to a level I won't be happy with. I can accept that people will find me weird, I'm used to that after 19 years of public school, but I can't accept that I won't feel "like myself".

Quote:

You can ask people on a similar level of frumkeit who they would call.

That's the problem. The last time the frummest lady talked to a rav was 5 years ago to ask help because she couldn't send her children to Jewish school. People don't call for "smaller" reasons, and these reasons don't appear every day!

Quote:

Or you can find out who people call for "life and death" matters.

Good idea, I'll try. I know of one of these rovs, but believe me or not he's too modern for me so dh doesn't want to hear about him.

Quote:

Well, the discussion here is about geirus issues. I can't believe there'd even be a debate about asking a rav for guidance in this area.

I'm only talking to them like a friend, and answering questions. I honestly don't see the problem.

Crayon210

Thu, Jun 29 2006, 5:00 pm

Ruchel wrote:

Quote:

That's called complacency.

I'm not the "always unhappy" kind. What do you want me to do? Find a mikve even farther? Switch to glatt and cholov yisroel just to make life even more difficult? It's not my thing.

Not being complacent is not about being unhappy.

I don't want you to do anything; I'm just pointing out that your attitude is not in line with Jewish thinking.

Quote:

We should never feel fully comfortable with where we're holding; as I said, a Jew should always be striving higher. It's not a matter of changing your identity, it's just aiming for something bigger and better.

Quote:

So ask the frummest lady which rav she spoke to, and if he's a respectable rav, then he will probably be happy to answer any questions, not just huge ones.

Quote:

I'm only talking to them like a friend, and answering questions. I honestly don't see the problem.

Because geirus is a HUGE issue. It's not just a nice thing, when someone discovers Judaism and wants to be a part of it. It's a serious matter that needs to be dealt with with extreme sensitivity and a great deal of knowledge. I'm not doubting your sincerity, but you need a mentor to guide you through this: for example, why didn't you try to convince the Portuguese girl not to miss her exam for Shabbos? It was probably an inappropriate thing to do.

Ruchel

Thu, Jun 29 2006, 6:34 pm

Quote:

I don't want you to do anything; I'm just pointing out that your attitude is not in line with Jewish thinking.

If you say so.

Quote:

I'm already not fully comfortable with being "the only weirdo who does X or Y". I already find some things very annoying. But globally yes I'm fine with my level, and sorry but it is important to me. I can't think of something more I could do without being totally uncomfortable. But if you have ideas...

Quote:

So ask the frummest lady which rav she spoke to, and if he's a respectable rav, then he will probably be happy to answer any questions, not just huge ones.

Ok. I'll ask her as soon as possible, maybe tisha beav.

Quote:

for example, why didn't you try to convince the Portuguese girl not to miss her exam for Shabbos?

I did. I told her she doesn't have to do that. At the same time, many rabbis not only allow but tell the future geirim to keep shabbes. So I didn't tell her "don't do it it's forbidden" either.