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Seraph

Thu, Sep 30 2010, 3:35 pm

I realize that a good chunk of the women reading this won't find this topic relevant to them, but for those that do, I hope we can offer each other some help and some laughs.

My rav probably thinks I'm crazy based on certain questions I've asked him, but the problem is also that, because I am a "homesteader" (someone who tries to be as self sufficient as possible and makes as many things at home as possible), many of my questions are so "far fetched" that my rav either has no idea the answer to my shailos, or even once I explain to him my question, he simply does not comprehend the specifics of the shailos or what exactly I am talking about.
I wish there were a book that actually dealt with some of the halachos that come up when homesteading. Does anyone know of a sefer that might actually be of use?
Does anyone know a rav that is familiar with these types of things that might be able to answer questions?

Questions I haven't been able to get an answer to that are related to homesteading (and also some questions that I have received answers to, just for interest's sake- noted with a *):

Can I drink kombucha from a continuous ferment on Shabbos or yom tov?
Can I put a kombucha mushroom from an old batch of kombucha to a new batch of tea if I want to drink the last bit of my kombucha and don't want my Scoby to die?

Can I get kefir grains from someone who doesn't keep a kosher home or doesn't keep chalav yisrael?

Can I take my sprouts out of my sprouting jar to be eaten on shabbos/yom tov if they're already sprouted but are continuing to sprout?*

Can I use my solar cooker on Shabbos to heat my already cooked food?
Does the halacha differ if I heat in my actual solar cooker or if I just put out food in a black pot with or without reflectors around, but without the heat trap box?
Can I use my solar cooker for both milchigs and fleishigs if I use a separate pot for milchig and fleishig?*

Is there any way to ensure my plants don't die on a three day yom tov in very hot weather?

Can I wash my fleishig towels with homemade laundry detergent made from bar soap that contains yogurt?*
Can I make liquid soap from bar soap in my pots or does it treif them up?*

I'm sure I'll come up with more questions.

Now has anyone gotten any answers to any of these questions? Or know who might?
And if you have any questions you need answered, feel free to add to the list in the hopes that someone else might be able to help you out.

Seraph

Thu, Sep 30 2010, 3:39 pm

Oh, and:

Can I feed my sourdough starter on shabbos/yom tov?
Can I take food out of a container that is currently lacto-fermenting?

And on a more general note-
Are probiotic cultures considered in halacha to be "food", "plants", or "animals" in terms of if you're allowed to take care of them on shabbos/yom tov? Because I know you can't water or take care of plants on shabbos but you're allowed to take care of animals... and food for the most part is ok so long as you're not preparing for after shabbos or cooking....

freidasima

Thu, Sep 30 2010, 4:03 pm

Seraph you ask beautiful questions but the aren't difficult.

You have to know the principle behind the question. You are basically asking three categories
1) what constitutes bishul on shabbos, what constituted using something "born" or created during a long period on shabbos and yuntif.
2) Kashrus - what items are considered "stam" to the point where you can take them from a non kosher kitchen or one that doesn't keep the kashrus (CY) the way you do and
3) Kashrus - what are the limitations of milchigs and fleishigs.

So. When you present your questions to your rov you have to explain three things:
1) the meaning of the food processes that you are describing and their length, at what stage in the process is something independently able to be eaten as a fully ready food
2) the process by which the food items you are describing are created, how they are stored in the other person's home and finally what the use is for them in your home.
3) what purposes are the items you mentioned used for, what degree of milchigs or fleishigs (percentage of total) does the milchig or fleishig item compose of the total etc.

I'm sure that with that information any competent rov could pasken any of the above for you. Heck, I could probably pasken them for you but a) I'm not a rov b) I don't pasken c) I would need the answers to the above questions.

This is how my father taught me one goes about understanding the halochic basis of something you are asked, using the process of questioning I mentioned above. You can apply it to almost all issues that come up and by giving the correct information to a rov even if the item being asked is unknown to him, he can reach a competent psak with enough information.

Seraph

Thu, Sep 30 2010, 4:15 pm

Freidasima, I tried explaining a lot of these things to the rav, but he definitely did not understand the concept of kefir grains or fully how the solar cooker works, etc... so its kind of hard for him to answer those questions....

Tamiri

Thu, Sep 30 2010, 4:21 pm

Seraph wrote:

So find another one. One who has a basic understanding of how things work and how to apply these workings to halacha le'ma'aseh. Or who knows a competent Rav who is capable of thinking.
With regards to the sourdough starter, I am paskening not to feed it because it's totally unnecessary. Nothing will happen if you feed it every other day, or whatever your recipe calls for. This, from experience.

freidasima

Thu, Sep 30 2010, 4:21 pm

If he didn't understand maybe ask a different rov, that's all. One who is a bit more knowledgeable.

Seraph

Thu, Sep 30 2010, 4:30 pm

freidasima wrote:

If he didn't understand maybe ask a different rov, that's all. One who is a bit more knowledgeable.

My rav is knowledgable. Just not on homesteading topics. Or maybe I'm just a really bad explainer when it comes to explaining how things work...

Granted, I didn't ask him all these questions, just a bunch of them or similar ones. (Like if he didn't understand what I meant about kefir enough to answer the question, there's no point asking about kombucha, because its the same idea of a yeast//bacteria conglomerate.)

I just wish there were a halacha sefer that I'd be able to find the answers to all these questions. Shmiras shabbos kehilchasa didn't have anything on the topic, not even for sourdough... and sourdough was around during the gemara...

Tamiri

Thu, Sep 30 2010, 4:35 pm

That's because even in the times of the Gemara, they knew you could leave your starter in the back of the fridge for up to 2 weeks and it wouldn't die. Those who went on vacation for a few weeks in Gemara times actually we able to freeze the starter and revive it by defrosting and feeding when they got back from Corfu or Alexandria or wherever they chose to vacation.

BeershevaBubby

Thu, Sep 30 2010, 5:26 pm

Oh, and to ensure your plants don't die on a 3 day Chag, hook it up to a watering system on a timer.

Of course your reply will be 'but we don't have that kind of setup and don't have the money, etc' or something along those lines.

So...

http://forums.gardenweb.com/fo.....tml?5

http://thegardenersrake.com/ho.....ought

http://www.ehow.co.uk/how_7105......html

KAlex

Fri, Oct 01 2010, 4:48 am

Can't help on the paskening side (although do you know any frum farmers/(commercial?) gardeners? Surely they must have a Rav who'd be able to help with many of these questions?), but I did have a thought on one question. You'd still have to check halachically, but I can't see what the problem would be...

Quote:

Is there any way to ensure my plants don't die on a three day yom tov in very hot weather?

It may be one of the methods YESHASettler linked to (I didn't check), but years ago I went in every day to a neighbour's house for a couple of weeks to feed (and walk) their dog and cat, and they asked me to keep an eye on the garden too. That hardly needed any attention, as they had a watering system basically with strips of cloth going from a bucket of water (that needed topping up every few days) to the rootstock of the sensitive plants. The water wicked over to the plant as it was needed. I don't remember the precise set-up (I only saw it in place), but there was something about getting the relative heights of plant and bucket right. It may have been 'special' cloth, but I doubt that'd really be necessary. In Israeli heat you'd probably want to cover the top of the bucket to stop it all evaporating away in minutes, of course...

Aidelmom

Sat, Oct 02 2010, 5:05 pm

I found a source on the solar cooker. It said "many authorities compare solar cooking to cooking in hot spring water" pg. 179 - the laws of kashrus by r' binyomin forst , oh and earlier it says about hot spring water - "naturally hot spring water: Poskim disagree whether naturally hot spring water can effect bishul. It is therefore questionable whether one may derive benefit from meat and milk cooked in hot spring water.

footnotes- aruch hashulchan 87:25, and ohel avraham 94

Chocoholic

Sat, Oct 02 2010, 8:33 pm

You can cook in the sun but not with a utensil (e.g. pan, metal plate, etc)

someoneoutthere

Sat, Oct 02 2010, 8:58 pm

Chocoholic wrote:

You can cook in the sun but not with a utensil (e.g. pan, metal plate, etc)

A lot of solar cookers are actually designed to reflect and therefore magnify the heat of the sun. In that case you'd actually be cooking with Toldos hachama, something that is assur.

Peanut2

Sat, Oct 02 2010, 11:06 pm

someoneoutthere wrote:

Chocoholic wrote:

You can cook in the sun but not with a utensil (e.g. pan, metal plate, etc)

A lot of solar cookers are actually designed to reflect and therefore magnify the heat of the sun. In that case you'd actually be cooking with Toldos hachama, something that is assur.

That's what I thought, but I'm not sure how said solar cooker really works.

Even if you want your official psak from *your* rabbi, you might want to ask a different rabbi who's more familiar with these things to "translate" this into rabbinic language.

EvenI

Sat, Oct 30 2010, 2:30 pm

I agree that a sefer on this would be very useful. Not offering answers, but I have a question: did you ever find out if kombucha mushrooms tend to be infested with tolaim and, if so, what can be done about it?

Seraph

Sat, Oct 30 2010, 3:36 pm

EvenI wrote:

Hrmm, have you ever seen a kombucha "mushroom"? It doesn't look like a mushroom- its just a gelatinous whitish browning "thing" made out of cellulose, no place for a bug to hide...

hannah95

Sat, Oct 30 2010, 3:40 pm

I have wanted to try kombucha for a long time but I can't seem to find any "kosher" source for it. There are some non-jews giving away kombucha in my neighbourhood, but it would be treif from the previous "feedings".
So if you're french, kosher, and have kombucha ... please let me know Smile

Ruchel

Sat, Oct 30 2010, 3:42 pm

Does what they feed on always matter? also for other things?

What do people do with kombucha?

This is a fascinating thread.

hannah95

Sat, Oct 30 2010, 3:46 pm

Ruchel wrote:

Does what they feed on always matter? also for other things?

What do people do with kombucha?

This is a fascinating thread.

From what I know, the kombucha is often fed in sugary liquid, and sometimes with the help of vinegar to start the culture. And from my understanding, and from reading the excellent Kombucha post on Penniless Parenting Smile

, the kombucha mushroom ""digests" things to grow. So I guess I wouldn't be confortable using a kombucha that has soaked in treif vinegar for example.

Ruchel

Sat, Oct 30 2010, 3:48 pm

I think I see! Out of curiosity, would it be treif in that case, or just uncomfy?

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