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-> Interesting Discussions
micki
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 Sun, Oct 10 2010, 8:37 pm
I was at a shiur where they were talking about if a snake wraps around you, you don't move out of shmone esre- but if a scorpion does, then you do.
it got me thinking, on yom kippur I was davening shmone esre, when I hear a child fall down the stairs- it was my 2 year old. I bolted over to him. and he was B"H fine.
was I supposed to do that? anyone know?
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the world's best mom
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Sun, Oct 10 2010, 8:53 pm
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Yes, you did the right thing. A mother's first job is to be taking care of her children. Davening is a nice extra if you can fit it in, but it should never take the place of caring for your children, even on Yom Kippur. My 2 year old is always getting into trouble, so I never daven when he's up and about- except Yom Kippur, but even then I keep an eye on him constantly and wouldn't hesitate to move to grab him during Shemona Esrei if at all necessary.
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louche
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Sun, Oct 10 2010, 9:03 pm
Ask your rav, because my opinion is totally unhalachic. Ok, so first of all I don't hold with davening and leaving your child unsupervised. That's why women are patur from time-dependent mitzvot, you know? But be that as it may, IMO--which I repeat is based on zero halachic knowledge but on my secondary religion of rationalism and plain ordinary garden-variety sechel: a child falls down the stairs, you have to check it out immediately. B"H it was nothing but it could have been very much of a something. So you should let your child possibly bleed to death or lie there concussed till you finish davening? I don't think so.
Then again you may not wish to listen to my opinion because despite having read in many books that if your candles fall on your shabbos tish and ignite the cloth, you can't extinguish the fire but can only pour water all around so that eventually the fire will reach the wet part and go out, I can guarantee you that if my tablecloth caught fire, I'd be putting it out. Of course, I don't believe in having candles on the table for this very reason: it's not safe. The KBH will judge me as He sees fit, but I know how fires can spread in the blink of an eye when people pussyfoot around trying to put them out, al achat kamah vechamah when they're trying NOT to put it out. Fire jumps, did you know that? From the table to the curtains, from the curtains to the sofa, from the sofa to the rug...That's between the KBH and me, I just want you to know where I'm coming from so you can accept or reject my opinion accordingly.
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micki
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Sun, Oct 10 2010, 9:07 pm
| louche wrote: | Ask your rav, because my opinion is totally unhalachic. Ok, so first of all I don't hold with davening and leaving your child unsupervised. That's why women are patur from time-dependent mitzvot, you know? But be that as it may, IMO--which I repeat is based on zero halachic knowledge but on my secondary religion of rationalism and plain ordinary garden-variety sechel: a child falls down the stairs, you have to check it out immediately. B"H it was nothing but it could have been very much of a something. So you should let your child possibly bleed to death or lie there concussed till you finish davening? I don't think so.
Then again you may not wish to listen to my opinion because despite having read in many books that if your candles fall on your shabbos tish and ignite the cloth, you can't extinguish the fire but can only pour water all around so that eventually the fire will reach the wet part and go out, I can guarantee you that if my tablecloth caught fire, I'd be putting it out. Of course, I don't believe in having candles on the table for this very reason: it's not safe. The KBH will judge me as He sees fit, but I know how fires can spread in the blink of an eye when people pussyfoot around trying to put them out, al achat kamah vechamah when they're trying NOT to put it out. Fire jumps, did you know that? From the table to the curtains, from the curtains to the sofa, from the sofa to the rug...That's between the KBH and me, I just want you to know where I'm coming from so you can accept or reject my opinion accordingly. | 
I hear ya! I didn't think, just heard the thump thumps and ran.
I would do the same as you- and how could I daven with my child fallen down the stairs - how could I concentrate?
but I am sorta wanting to know the halachic answer.
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louche
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Sun, Oct 10 2010, 9:12 pm
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Pikuach nefesh is doche everything except yehareg ve-al yaavor, and a kid falling down the stairs is a pikuach nefesh situation. Just plain crying when he's in the crib, probably not unless you recognize that seriously- in- trouble sound, but falling down stairs? For sure.
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louche
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Sun, Oct 10 2010, 9:14 pm
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Ahem...not to get snarky or holier-than-thou or anything, but....why don't you have a child-safe gate across your stairs?
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micki
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Sun, Oct 10 2010, 9:17 pm
| louche wrote: | | Ahem...not to get snarky or holier-than-thou or anything, but....why don't you have a child-safe gate across your stairs? |
the kid is almost 3- he's been doing stairs for quite some time- way beyond the gate stage...
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Raizle
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Sun, Oct 10 2010, 9:36 pm
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You are even allowed to move in Shemona Esrei if the child was just crying stam and didn't fall down the stairs. That's what I remember learning.
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Kayza
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Sun, Oct 10 2010, 9:43 pm
| micki wrote: | on yom kippur I was davening shmone esre, when I hear a child fall down the stairs- it was my 2 year old. I bolted over to him. and he was B"H fine.
was I supposed to do that? anyone know? |
Would you have hesitated to call hatzoloh? There is a simple rule here that you seem to have missed. YOu don't step out of shmone esrei for scary things, but you DO step out for DANGEROUS things. And, if you think that a child falling down the stairs is not DANGEROUS, you need to talk to your oediatrician and some emts.
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shalhevet
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Mon, Oct 11 2010, 12:38 am
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You can move (without talking) for anything that is distracting you from davenning -eg to calm a crying child, bring them a drink if they are whining, move away from a bad smell (this you have to do, not can). After a certain time has elapsed (don't remember) you'd have to start SE again, but otherwise you just pick up where you left off.
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kalsee
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Mon, Oct 11 2010, 1:08 am
| shalhevet wrote: | | You can move (without talking) for anything that is distracting you from davenning -eg to calm a crying child, bring them a drink if they are whining, move away from a bad smell (this you have to do, not can). After a certain time has elapsed (don't remember) you'd have to start SE again, but otherwise you just pick up where you left off. |
Also , iirc , if you spoke in the middle you have to start again.
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DrMom
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Mon, Oct 11 2010, 1:22 am
| micki wrote: | | louche wrote: | | Ahem...not to get snarky or holier-than-thou or anything, but....why don't you have a child-safe gate across your stairs? |
the kid is almost 3- he's been doing stairs for quite some time- way beyond the gate stage... |
And, to be fair, anyone of any age can trip and fall down some stairs and hurt himself. If someone (child or adult) injured himself and there were no non-daveners around to help him, you'd bet I'd stop davening to help him. Pikuach nefesh.
But I'm no rav, and certainly not a posek, so maybe I'm wrong.
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willow
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Mon, Oct 11 2010, 1:32 am
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If the child is in the slightest slightest danger you go get the kid. I know we learned that in Halocha.
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micki
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Mon, Oct 11 2010, 6:53 am
| Kayza wrote: |
. And, if you think that a child falling down the stairs is not DANGEROUS, you need to talk to your oediatrician and some emts. | [/quote]
hey why you getting (to borrow a word) snarky?
what gave you this impression?
| Quote: |
You can move (without talking) for anything that is distracting you from davenning -eg to calm a crying child, bring them a drink if they are whining, move away from a bad smell (this you have to do, not can). After a certain time has elapsed (don't remember) you'd have to start SE again, but otherwise you just pick up where you left off. |
this is interesting - I never knew this. and I did just continue where I left off- didn't even think of that part.
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chocolate moose
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Mon, Oct 11 2010, 7:46 am
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I attended a shiur this past summer which corroborates this - moving isn't a hefsek, talking is.
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Levtov
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Mon, Oct 11 2010, 7:58 am
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So, what is the right thing to do? Not daven at all, or daven and attend the little ones, in between?
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rise above
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Mon, Oct 11 2010, 9:31 am
| shalhevet wrote: | | You can move (without talking) for anything that is distracting you from davenning -eg to calm a crying child, bring them a drink if they are whining, move away from a bad smell (this you have to do, not can). After a certain time has elapsed (don't remember) you'd have to start SE again, but otherwise you just pick up where you left off. |
I learned the same in halacha class in school. I was told though to take 3 steps back and then 3 steps forward again when you're ready to restart. Again if something is distracting you (even a insistent doorbell ringing), you can do what you have to do but don't talk.
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mazelandbracha
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Mon, Oct 11 2010, 2:56 pm
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I learned recently that you should even stop to quickly change a diaper (no talking) - because you can't daven near the smell.
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Besiyata Dishmaya
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Mon, Oct 11 2010, 3:52 pm
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Talking about stepping out in middle of Shemone Esre, I always want to ask my husband but keep forgetting, I wonder if you're allowed to pick a chumash/siddur/sefer/sheimos if it falls to the floor? And what about in middle of Keddushah?
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Kayza
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Mon, Oct 11 2010, 5:11 pm
| micki wrote: |
hey why you getting (to borrow a word) snarky?
what gave you this impression?
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Because the question implies either that you can't step out of SE for a danger or that someone (never mid a child) falling down the stairs does not constitute a serious danger.
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