K'vater/K'vaterin. Who to give to?

amother

Thu, Apr 28 2011, 6:50 pm

I know that people typically give these kibbudim to a couple who is trying to conceive. Is it okay to still do if the couple already has a few children, but had trouble conceiving them and still has fertility issues? We have good friends who are in that situation.

What about having a few kvater/kvaterin couples? Is that ridiculous? I was thinking that I wanted to have my sister and bil involved in the bris too. They (k"h) have children and do not have fertility issues. Is it silly to just play "pass the baby"?

We live in a right-wing community and attend a right-wing shul, but I've never paid attention to what goes on at the brissim. I don't want to do anything weird.

TIA.

zaq

Thu, Apr 28 2011, 9:04 pm

Last bris I attended, there was a whole bucket brigade with the kid being handed off from one woman to another to a third and fourth, all of them married with children IIRC. I forgot who finally passed the kid to a man, either her father or her husband. It almost looked as if someone had told them the women are not allowed to walk any distance carrying the baby, because the whole distance the baby had to go was very short and he was just passed from hand to hand till the grandfather got him. So just who was the "official" kvaterin, if any, was unclear. The only actual couple involved were the grandparents, long past the stage of ttc. It did seem rather silly and fussy and unnecessarily complicated, but knowing the baby's mother, I wouldn't be surprised if that was her effort to include everyone lest G-d forbid some relative be insulted she wasn't asked. Or maybe there was a still-childless woman somewhere in that chain whom I didn't see, and that whole chain thing was a smokescreen to avoid embarrrassing that woman. In any case, the whole kvater.kvaterin thing is not a halacha. Like lehavdil the white wedding dress that is no longer an announcement of the bride's virginity, the position of kvatr.kvaterin need not be an announcement that a couple is ttc. Do whatever pleases you and your friends. Not everyone is so happy to be offered this honor, btw, especially if they really are ttc. For many, it's tantamount to taking out an ad in the paper "Hey, everyone, the Goldsteins are having fertility problems!" So tread carefully.

RachelEve14

Thu, Apr 28 2011, 9:52 pm

At Avraham Tzvi's brit we asked my cousin and his wife. I'm very close to his wife and she came to the birth, so it seemed appropriate. They have ka'h 4 kids, but all girls, and someone also told me it's a secula for a boy.

In any case, they were late (Yekkie brit, dh waited a bit but couldn't wait anymore), so we asked our closest friends (dh grew up with the wife and now we are close friends). She asked me if her single sister could pass the baby to her, and then her to her dh. Why not? So that's what we did.

I don't think there are any rules.

Mazel Tov!

amother

Thu, Apr 28 2011, 10:02 pm

if it has nothing to do with fertility why do people decline if they are pregnant?

It is a segula for all sorts of brocha but specifically for fertility. As someone who is married more than a year without children I would give it to someone trying to conceive. You can give kavod to your friends and family at other times.

I was kvater 3 times this year and each time it meant alot to me not because of the segula but because of the emotional chizuk it gave me that the people who honored me with the kavod thought of me and chose me for the kavod.

zaq

Fri, Apr 29 2011, 6:01 am

amother wrote:

if it has nothing to do with fertility why do people decline if they are pregnant?

Because many Yidden make a fixation of folklore and insist on inventing mystical/religious/symbolic associations for everything they do right down to the way they butter their toast. G-d forbid we should do something for the simple joy and pleasure of participating in a friend's simcha. No, everything has to be complicated, fraught with otherworldly meaning, paralyzed by protocol, overthought, second-guessed, and riddled with landmines. It's worse than dinner at an embassy.

Have you ever considered that pregnant couples may decline as an act of generosity, since being kvater.kvaterin is reputed to be a segulah for conception, and they no longer "need" that segulah?

zaq

Fri, Apr 29 2011, 6:04 am

amother wrote:

You can give kavod to your friends and family at other times.

I was kvater 3 times this year and each time it meant alot to me not because of the segula but because of the emotional chizuk it gave me that the people who honored me with the kavod thought of me and chose me for the kavod.

You have just contradicted yourself. On the one hand you tell OP that the segulah for fertility is of top importance and she can honor her friends at other times (when? At the kid's bar mitzvah candlelighting ceremony?), and in the next moment you claim that when you were selected, it was davka the honor that meant the most to you, not the segulah. make up your mind, hon.

sky

Fri, Apr 29 2011, 6:47 am

amother wrote:

if it has nothing to do with fertility why do people decline if they are pregnant?

It is an ayin hara for a pregnant women to do it.

Our rav has were told us that it is a tremendous zechus to be kvater even if it is diffucult to do so.

It isn't just for those with fertility issues but also for parnassah, etc.

Personally I think it would be funny to have multiple k'vaters.

amother

Fri, Apr 29 2011, 9:33 am

I have accepted the kibud of kvatter when I was obviously pregnant, at the request of my dh's chashuv rebbi (it was his son's bris). He told us it is a segulah, period.

At our son's bris, we had several kvatterim- each passing the baby to the next- and all were single relatives (and a close friend) in need of a shidduch. There was no one at the bris who needed the segulah for fertility b'H. We were very happy to make them feel that they were actively participating in the simcha, and that they were in our thoughts during the eis ratzon.

farm

Fri, Apr 29 2011, 10:13 am

I have done it when pregnant. It is a mitzvah d'oraisa for a father to give his son a bris. Therefore it is a big zechus to "help" the father achieve this objective either by carrying the baby to his bris, helping dress him before the bris, helping to wheel him into shul, etc. We all want as many zechusim as possible, not just people who are TTC.

life'sgreat

Fri, Apr 29 2011, 12:17 pm

amother wrote:

Because there's an inyan for a pregnant woman not to be in the limelight.

It is NOT specifically for fertility. The real segulah at a bris for fertility is actually for the husband to be sandek, but most people don't give that to just an infertile couple, but to a rav, or another adam chashuv. It evolved into giving 'second best', kvatter, which is a segulah for everything. Parnossa, good children, hatzlocha etc...

If you enjoy it for the kavod, that's ok. But that does not translate into kvatter = segulah for fertility.

Mommy3.5

Fri, Apr 29 2011, 12:50 pm

At more then one of my britot, I looked into the men's section, and then the women's, when I saw which guests were actually married couples. The first pair I had was my aunt and uncle, another time it was my grandparents!. they are married a long time and way past the baby stage.

kvatter can go to anyone, traditionally its a married couple. My father gave it to friends who needed a rfuah, people who needed other various yeshuot. As Life's great said, its not specifically for fertility issues, but its a great segula to be part of a brit.

Mommy3.5

Fri, Apr 29 2011, 3:25 pm

sky wrote:

Mommy3.5 wrote:

kvatter can go to anyone, traditionally its a married couple.

I've heard of engaged couples being k'vater.

We had an middle age couple be k'vater for us as a zechus for their children who didn't feel comfortable doing it.

I said "traditionally" not it Always is.

lamplighter

Sat, Apr 30 2011, 8:44 pm

In Chabad pregnant women do not accept the kavod because it would not be considered a "couple" escorting the baby but rather 3. Same as escorting to the chuppah only 2 not 3.

And yes asking a couple who are dealing with IF might make them uncomfortable because it's a public "announcement" so to speak so be sensitive to that fact.