Ask a Shailah or Use Common Sense?

ShiraMiri

Mon, Sep 25 2006, 8:01 pm

Ok, so the title of the thread is tantalizing. However, I actually started this thread because of a thread started by amother who broke her fast and felt guilty. There were a multitude of responses - some saying don't feel bad - some hold that women don't need to fast on minor fast days, some saying they weren't fasting either, some saying why didn't she ask a rav - she should have had a valid reason/heter not to fast - she can't just decide herself.

Honestly, when does common sense prevail? I am all for asking shailohs about important issues. I realize that an important issue is relative to each person. Honestly though, I know some people who call their rav about every minute aspect of their lives - the way some people continue to go to their parents for help on every minute issue of their lives well into adulthood. There is a time for shailahs and a time to grow up.

I don't want this thread to harp on the fasting issue - but using that as an example - if this grown woman decided that it was too much for her to fast - why does she need to ask a rabbi if she can eat? If she feels faint, unable to care for herself, her children, her work responsibilities - whatever the case - I think she knows her limits. You could say the same for BC. If a woman has several young children, even if she is healthy as a horse with no medical issues, but she just can't face coping with another baby - why does she need to ask a rabbi if she can take a break? Is she or is she not capable of deciding for herself?

My husband has asked shailahs on BC use before, and basically, the rav has given a heter when we have asked. But, honestly, I wondered myself why we were even asking? If he had said no, then what? I would have forced another close-timed pregnancy on my already overworked body? Do I or don't I know what my body and mind is capable of handling?

Discuss.

amother

Mon, Sep 25 2006, 8:36 pm

Quote:

if this grown woman decided that it was too much for her to fast - why does she need to ask a rabbi if she can eat?

Because if I want to know what G-D wants from me and expects from me than I will ask a Rav. The reason being that the Rav knows more than I do. He will know, in these circumstances, given this situation, etc., its o.k. To break the fast. This is a religious issue and as such, we want to know what G-D's will is for us. When it comes to halacha and hashkafa its not common sense that prevails, its G-D's will that should prevail.

busymom

Mon, Sep 25 2006, 8:42 pm

oh oh oh! has someone opened up a can of worms here, or what?! can't wait to see how this discussion unfolds!

I think sometimes you need both: a shailah AND common sense! for example, if a woman feels she has reached her limits and can't handle more kids at the moment, she shouldn't wait for a nevous breakdown c"v! but since it's an issue that definitely involves halacha, I'd recommend she DO ask a sheilah, BUT she do her homework too, so she knows she'll get the answer she needs. for example, I know about a rav who didn't have kids for many yrs and has a hard time understanding someone in such a situation. he only gives a heter in very rare and extreme cases. that's def the wrong address! so even when asking a sheilah, STILL use common sense!

(on the topic of asking lots of shailahs in general, I mentioned in another thread that I think ppl ask lots of sheilos - EVEN when it's not halacha and they already know the answers - because they don't want the responsibility of making decisions, and even when they know exactly what they want, it feels better to know it's on someone else's head... )

Last edited by busymom on Mon, Sep 25 2006, 8:59 pm; edited 1 time in total

ShiraMiri

Mon, Sep 25 2006, 9:11 pm

busymom - I think you put my question into words better than I did. And amother (why amother?) would it be G-d's will that the woman should pass out while watching her kids if she feels too ill to continue to fast? I can recall a time when I had three kids under the age of three, a husband who would not be back from work until the next day, and I was fasting alone. I don't know how I got through those times, but I remember being terrified that I would pass out with three babies crawling around their unconcious mother and no one would find us until the next night when my husband came home. Looking back, I honestly don't know why I just didn't break my fast. I feel like I put myself and my children in danger. What was the point - so I could be a hero and say I fasted?

shalhevet

Tue, Sep 26 2006, 2:27 am

micki wrote:

what if a mother was fasting and needed to break it. she tries calling her rav but there is no answer. she tries and tries and can't get thru, so she breaks her fast becasue she can't go on.
just a thought.

First of all I think people need to know basic halachos. In the example about fasting, someone should know (and if they don't, ask before the fast) what is the criteria for their rav of breaking a fast. EG if someone knows before they are going to be home alone with 3 babies they could ask at what point they don't need to fast. It is often enought to have a simple, clear halacha book in the house for this. It is important for someone to know that on a minor fast day someone ill doesn't need to fast, whereas on YK it has to be pikuach nefesh. Then you may not even need to ask the rav on the day or even get to such a point. People also have previous experience as to how they fast, like posters on the other thread who wrote that they always fast really badly and have asked a rav in general about minor fasts.

If you have this basic knowledge and you can't get hold of a rav then you can use your common sense. You would know that if you were about to faint you could break your fast, but to go shopping you couldn't.

But you also need common sense as to how to ask the shaila. If you say you are about to 'collapse' when you have a headache, you are not going to get the right answer anyway.

OTOH there are specific situations which don't have answers in books on halacha because they are unique to each person. This would include the bc issue. You do use your common sense because it is you who decide how to portray the facts/feelings to the rav. Much of the information you give is subjective about how you feel both physically and emotionally.

amother

Tue, Sep 26 2006, 3:32 am

(amother because I think that I am going to get yelled at for what I write and I also am protecting my privacy)

my husband and I do not ask sheailot for every little thing that happens in our lives.
we use judgment. if we treif something up, we will ask how we can untreif it. things like that.
but most probably for things that concern my body (BC etc) I would not ask b/c it is my body and the rabbanim do not in any way know me in that way and can not and should not be able totell me what I can or can not do.
that is just my opinion.

shabbatiscoming

Tue, Sep 26 2006, 5:49 am

mali wrote:

The wording of the title is very provocative. What do you mean by "use common sense"? If Hashem would want us to use our common sense, He would not give us the Torah. Mitzvos and Halachos are not human logic, they are G-d's wisdom. Who are we to decide Halacha according to our very limited minds?

im sorry but what does commom sense have to do with HaShem givning us the Torah? we are allowed to have common sense and believe and live by ther Torah as well.

correct that the mitzvot and halachot are not human logic, but we can use our common sense to figure out how they are supposed to be fulfilled.

sarahd

Tue, Sep 26 2006, 8:06 am

I think mummyof6 has a good point. People should know basic halacha so that they don't need to ask their rov for every small point. They should also realize, however, when they have reached the limits of their halachic understanding, and then ask a shaila.

As an example, re the fast: People should know that halacha doesn't require one to be at the point of dying in order to break a minor fast. If I had felt awful yesterday and that I couldn't go on fasting, it wouldn't have occurred to me to ask a shaila. I know enough to know that I don't need to ask. OTOH, when I had a baby three weeks before Tisha B'Av, I did ask a shaila about fasting, because I wasn't sure of the halacha.

So, common sense - yes, you should have enough sense to know that if you know the halacha and it's clear and unequivocal, you don't have to ask a shaila.

ShiraMiri

Tue, Sep 26 2006, 9:18 am

Sometimes common sense can and should prevail - like a woman breaking a minor fast when she feels ill and has to care for her kids. I started this thread not with the concept of complicated shailahs - even things like is this utensil treif or not. Shailahs that have to do with how an individual feels healthwise and emotionally.

Another example - someone I know wanted her husband to dress more casually on family outings (zoo, park, etc). He was more yeshivish than she. He had to keep going back to his rav for every concession. Can he wear Dockers instead of suit pants? Can he wear a striped or colored shirt instead of white? Can he wear docksider loafers instead of dress shoes? Everything he wore was a shailah. Even the kind of tie he was allowed to wear on shabbos. He went to his rav for everything! BTW the rav said ok to all of the above questions. But why was/is everything a shailah like that? Why couldn't he decide for himself to make his wife happy and dress down on family outings a bit?

ShiraMiri

Tue, Sep 26 2006, 9:23 am

mali wrote:

So Hashem gave us the Torah so we would not have to think for ourselves and use our common sense? We can blindly follow what our rabbis tell us to do and be relieved of the burden of free will and decision-making? Confused

JMto2

Tue, Sep 26 2006, 9:33 am

I must agree with Marney with a lot of points. First off I believe those that ask a shailah do not even know the halacha of what the thing is for example I went to shul to hear parshas zocher and my kid started crying I walked out and left I told my husband to ask the rav if I have to hear it or what and the rav said that women are not mechuiv to hear zocher so no I do not and by the way the same goes for hearing shofer. I feel that women have to start using common sense and stop asking for every move. I ask the rav in instances of Taharas Hamishpacha and halacha then my husband goes to his rav for sometimes guidance in big things like business etc. but my husband also has two ravs one more with it and out there for guidance. I feel that the lady who broke her fast did nothing wrong since it was not a must for her to fast to begin with she did as much as she could. The other thing what bothers me is when someone asks for guidance on a stupid thing on this site you get an answer of call your rav first off the person probably is not sure if anyone called a rav in the past about the situation or it is not something you go to the rav for.

shalhevet

Tue, Sep 26 2006, 9:57 am

Marney wrote:

We can blindly follow what our rabbis tell us to do and be relieved of the burden of free will and decision-making? Confused

Free will means choosing whether to do what Hashem wants, or not. On many occasions we need to ask a rav in order to be able to utilize our free will. If you don't know what ratzon Hashem is in a particular situation, how can you use free will?

What are you trying to say? That someone who asks a rav then doesn't have a yeitzer hara? I wish Exclamation

timeout

Tue, Sep 26 2006, 9:58 am

To be able to say I know my body and it's limitations does not mean your going against Halacha.

If you know that going to shul with a collicky baby is going to interrupt everyone elses davening including your own u would use common and don't go to shul, u don't need to send your DH to the Rav to ask if you should be there with a screaming baby. By the way I did take both my children to shul my dd fell asleep on the way my DH wanted me to wake her so I could go upstairs to hear shofar, I didn't want to do this and asked someone just to hold open the door which worked out fine.

With the example of fasting if u know u will be so ill you would not be able to take care of your children, and there is no one else to help u don't fast or fast till chatzos. Having an almost fainting or totally miserable mother who will definitely be past her breaking point won't help anyone.

The common sense of kowing how and when to dress is just Seichel u have to have a Kop on your choulders, which is what my mother always says "Use your Kop". My DH and I went to my sons orientation he didn't have to ask me what he had to wear it was a given not to wear his work clothes but to change before he got there.

melalyse

Tue, Sep 26 2006, 10:04 am

If you ask your Rabbi before the fast "At what point can I break my fast if I don't feel well" and he gives you an answer. Then you are asking a shaila and using common sense. I guess that this would be personality and stubborness. When I was single no matter how badly I felt there is no way that I would ever break my fast. Last tisha baav I was 7.5 months pregnant and it was 100 degrees and my huband and doctor decided that I should not fast. I only drand water all day because I couldn't bring myself to eat. Different people have different threshholds. This year when I was nursing I had a terrible fast. I dealt with it and It was over. I would have felt much worse breaking my fast. If I was going to dehydrate that would be a different story.

mali

Tue, Sep 26 2006, 10:51 am

Marney wrote:

Another example - someone I know wanted her husband to dress more casually on family outings (zoo, park, etc). He was more yeshivish than she. He had to keep going back to his rav for every concession. Can he wear Dockers instead of suit pants? Can he wear a striped or colored shirt instead of white? Can he wear docksider loafers instead of dress shoes? Everything he wore was a shailah. Even the kind of tie he was allowed to wear on shabbos. He went to his rav for everything!

These are things that have nothing to do with Halacha. For that use your own feelings. If a person doesn't feel up to dressing in black and white, no one's forcing him to do so. Not even his rabbi.

ShiraMiri

Tue, Sep 26 2006, 10:57 am

mummyof6 wrote:

Marney wrote:

We can blindly follow what our rabbis tell us to do and be relieved of the burden of free will and decision-making? Confused

You raise a very good point. I like your answer!