what do you think about this???

mom71

Mon, Oct 03 2011, 7:19 am

What do you think about a 17 year old (orthodox. not modern) reading "Romance books" at this age? My daughter has been begging me for these books and I always told her that I don't think it's proper for her age. As long as she was still asking my permission (which is slightly surprising at this age) I wasn't going to let. Well I guess her urge was really strong! I was looking for something in her roon (which I know is a big "no No") and I lifted her matress and found about 10 of those books there! I am not going to confront her because I was wrong for snooping but "it kinda hurts" what I saw. She must have bought them when she went away in the summer or got them from a friend (brand new books). Anyways I know this is normal, I just want to know how normal it is, since I never grew up doing these things. I was a more sheltered girl.

simi5771

Mon, Oct 03 2011, 9:58 am

these books are not ideal at any age... (they can be very graphic) but if you force her away, she's going to want more... so what to do?

Well I have no really Confused

idea I am dreading my daughter reaching this age... but I am wondering if you can help fill her void in other ways? Volunteer activity in the community, perhaps? Does she have any hobbies or other activities? Maybe keeping her super busy will help... good luck

zaq

Mon, Oct 03 2011, 10:19 am

Depends on what kind of romances they are. Some are just sweet love stories, and the raciest they get is a dance culminating in a kiss and mild caressing. At the other extreme are works of unabashed soft-core [filth], crude terminology and all. I suggest you have a peek and see what kind your dd reads.

You're not going to get your dd to stop reading , so don't bother trying. You might want to have a frank talk with her and let her know that these books, while fun escapism, are pure fiction and don't reflect reality. So long as she doesn't develop unrealistic expectations for her own life, the pareve ones won't do her any harm. The mildly graphic ones, if tastefully written, can even serve as a kind of relations-ed course and may lessen the shock of what happens on the wedding night. There's value to having a little advance knowledge.

I'd suggest you let your dd know that you understand her curiosity and encourage her to come to you with any questions she may have. You want to have open communication with your dd, uncomfortable as this may be for you. So long as you're talking to each other, you can still influence your dd as to tzniut and propriety.

Chayalle

Mon, Oct 03 2011, 10:33 am

When I was growing up, my mother would read various books and the ones she approved (less graphic, more classic, whatever) I was allowed to read. I read books like Rebecca and Gone with the Wind at home, because those were "approved".

Honestly, I read other stuff at friends' houses, etc...My older sisters got novels and let me read them (including married sisters). The stuff was trash. I regret having read them because images stay with you and today, I'd rather not have read them.

However, I am my own person and responsible for my own self. I don't think that it would have helped if my mother had tried to "police" me more. I made my own choices and (hopefully) grew with them, and it certainly contributed to the choices I make today. I know now that there's nothing "out there" that I'm missing, and this helps me to police myself today.

chocolate chips

Mon, Oct 03 2011, 10:38 am

My mother used to read through any books I borrowed from the library or wanted to buy before I could read them.
Sometimes she just told me to skip a chapter other times she told me I couldnt read the book at all.
By the time I was 17/18 and I finished sem I basically read what I wanted but I kinda sensored them myself skipping out graphic parts etc
If she is mature enough to understand, explain to her why you dont want her to read such books and tell her you trust her not to read the really bad parts or she should let you skim the book first.
The more you say no though the more she will want.

thankyou

Mon, Oct 03 2011, 10:47 am

The not-too-trashy ones will do no harm and may even be helpful as zaq said: "There's value to having a little advance knowledge. "

I, as chayalle, read a lot of things that I wish I never did but as you grow older you see the good in that as well. You learn from things.

As to the more trashy ones, I would try very hard to keep my dd away from that. I've read that as well and wouldn't want my dd to read them. The info there, IMHO, is too much info (esepcially for a 17 YO). Of course it's hard, if possible at all, to control waht she reads.
I think that you have a better shot at knowing what she is reading and maybe trying to make sure she stays away from the real trash if you allowed the mildly graphic ones. But tahts just my opinion.

mom71

Mon, Oct 03 2011, 5:10 pm

Thank you so much for all your replies. For those that said that they read through the books first, I always do that. That's my policy for all library books and my kids know that even though they hate it and make fun of me. But this time my daughter bought these books on her own or got them from a friend. I only happened to find them by chance. She knows I don't approve of it and that's why she hid them. I know there is not much I can do because she is already 17. I am just disgusted that she is reading these books. I don't know how graphic or gross they are. Do you think I should say something?

Faigy86

Mon, Oct 03 2011, 5:38 pm

Just from my experience teaching teenagers, it sounds like you should have a discussion that may sound a bit like a pre-kallah class shmooze... She should hear about the fact that reading things like that will diminish the kedusha that she can potentially have and she will be creating dangerous comparisons that will complicate her marriage. It shouldn't come as an accusation about the horrible thing she's done, but more as an off-hand discussion that now that she is getting older, it is important for her to understand that her taava to read these books now, can be harmful for her later on. And that there is a yiddish perspective and it would be a chaval for her to bring the secular perspective into her life now...

Fox

Mon, Oct 03 2011, 5:45 pm

I may shock some people with my response, but here goes: I wouldn't worry too much about a 17-year-old reading romance novels.

Here's why:

Romance literature, whether the innocent or soft [filth] variety, follows a standard format. Boy and girl meet, usually under trying conditions; boy and girl resist attraction for various reasons; boy and girl become involved; relationship is tested by outside forces; boy and girl overcome difficulties and live happily ever after (or "HEA" as they say in the romance book industry).

So while we might prefer that these books minimize s-xual content, they are perhaps the only literature that consistently promotes and endorses what we would consider positive family values. Many literary novels, for example, almost seem to take delight in focusing on family dysfunctions and hypocrisy, as if bad parenting, adultery, and abuse are somehow more "real" than doggedly building a relationship and tackling obstacles.

Now, as Zaq pointed out, girls need to understand that life as portrayed in romance novels isn't exactly what most of us are living. But since when do 17-year-old girls have a true understanding of the realities of married life and motherhood -- even if they don't read romance novels? In fact, it's probably good that most girls aren't terribly realistic -- too many might be scared off!

Personally, I would probably try to find a light romance or "chick lit" book that was sufficiently racy to give my teenager the feeling that she was reading something really naughty, yet mild enough not to be too titillating. I'd read it, recommend it, and then discuss it casually while driving or doing chores. Discuss the characters' strengths and weaknesses; how those characteristics play out in real life (e.g., the hulking, controlling hero is often not so pleasant to live with on a day-to-day basis); what qualities the hero has that are worth seeking in a spouse, etc.

In other words, my goal would be to make my DD a critic of what she reads (romance or not) rather than simply reading it because it's forbidden or because she enjoys the escapism. Sometimes a little literary analysis goes a long way in disarming or muting the appeal of books you'd rather your kids avoided.

amother

Mon, Oct 03 2011, 5:55 pm

I personally love romance novels at my age! this is not just your daughter, even "older" people like to read romance novels too. though as much as I love reading them I do feel like maybe I shouldn't be, I'm not quite sure! like I know there's nothing bad about it but I can't help thinking maybe I should be reading something more "pure". but like others said there are a range of romance novels, not all of them are mills & boon. I think it is ok so long as she knows that the way our religion views this subject is on a much more elevated level than what she is reading.

amother

Mon, Oct 03 2011, 7:35 pm

mom71 wrote:

I definitely think your daughter is normal cuz I was the same way. Because my parents were so frum and strict I knew they wouldnt approve so I took romance books out of the library and hid them in my pillowcase. I did other things behind my parents back like getting my own portable dvd player and watching R rated movies. I dont know if my parents ever figured out what I was up to or not. But my dh was the same way but I think his parents knew more than they let on but they just kept their mouths shut. We know that what we were doing was wrong but teenagers have hormones and a yetzer hara and they sometimes cant control themselves. Like some of the others said I do think it may be good to have a discussion with your daughter to explain to her that real life is not a romance novel and that jewish pple have a different view on s*x and that there are halachas involved. I still find it hard to come to terms with the fact that s*x (in the right time of course) is a mitzva. I have so much influence from the secular world so I find it hard to wrap my head around that concept that s*x can be a holy thing. Anyway, good luck with your daughter.

1387

Mon, Oct 03 2011, 8:17 pm

@ Amother at 6:35:
The last 2 sentences you wrote just prove the point that our views are very much influenced by what we expose ourselves to.
I think the suggestion of having an open & non-confrontational discussion on the subject with the daughter is the best suggestion thus far.
The fact that she does not see hypocrisy (as in her parents being allowed to read these books but not the kids) will only help the message come across as loving & caring as possible.
Good luck!

Hug

amother

Mon, Oct 03 2011, 8:47 pm

amother wrote:

mom71 wrote:

I am quoting myself to show that I do advise a discussion for the reasons I wrote in the last few sentences.

Dolly Welsh

Mon, Oct 03 2011, 10:05 pm

Here is a suggestion.

You might: first, quickly read through every single one of these books when she isn't home. Skim them. Then, two, leave exactly in the same place the ones that aren't so bad, and then discard right into the trash - outside of the house - anything truly gross. Three, say absolutely nothing, nothing at all, not one peep, and act like nothing happened.

It is possible she may not even notice if one or two are missing from the heap. It is quite possible that she has forgotten exactly how many there were, or what the titles all were.

Or, she may notice, and "get it", get your point, that we don't have to be perfect, but there are still lines and limits, and say nothing. She might be embarrassed, a little mad, and possibly grateful, all mixed together. If she confronts you, lie fast, hard and well. Say, "I have no idea what you are talking about" and start the laundry or something. It's ok to do that, because she has been lying to you, and anyway, you are the mother. You don't report to her and you don't have to explain yourself or your actions which are protective of her.

But I don't think she will confront you.

Fellow posters, is this a crazy suggestion for OP? I am not sure of myself here.

Yes, the kid wants to know. So sure, a little gradual kallah instruction, but on your terms.

zaq

Mon, Oct 03 2011, 10:25 pm

If you want to totally destroy any vestige of trust your dd has in you, do what DW suggested and tamper with her books.

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Unless you have reason to believe that dd is doing something illegal like dealing drugs or harmful to her health like cutting herself, she has a right to privacy. You violated that privacy by searching her bed. Unless you normally make her bed--in which case she may have stashed the books there hoping you;d find them--then she hid the books thinking she could trust you to respect her privacy. Once she learns you don't respect her privacy, you can forget about ever having any kind of open and honest conversation with her.

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You sound like a person from a community where girls start shidduchim at around 18 and some are mothers at 19. Please explain why you think your dd is almost old enough to get married and be a mother but not old enough to read romance novels?

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BTW, what were you looking for in her room and why?

mom71

Mon, Oct 03 2011, 10:36 pm

zaq -I happened to be looking for a"proper" book that she once took from me. As I mentioned before, I was wrong for snooping, I do give my teenagers their privacy. That is exactly why I won't confront her. Especially since I know what she did is norma for girls her agel. I will defiinitly NOT take the books, nor will I ever LIE to her. I believe in "practice what you preach". I was just asking for any suggestions and what people thought about it.

amother

Mon, Oct 03 2011, 10:38 pm

I like Zaq's suggestion.

I read non-[filth] romance novels as a teen, censoring as I went - and now wish I would've read what I didn't then (to preserve my kedusha, etc) because I have major issues with wrapping my mind around s*x (I.e., I avoided it so zealously that now I find it hard to embrace it!)

So talking about it at this age is a GOLDEN opportunity. Zaq, you sound like a very well-balanced individual.

Dolly Welsh

Mon, Oct 03 2011, 11:28 pm

zaq wrote:

OK, I stand corrected.

amother

Tue, Oct 04 2011, 12:19 am

I just wanted to say that I still hate my father for going into my room when I was a teenager and taking my books. I now have a perfectly normal and pleasant relationship with him, but I will never forgive him for doing that. It was such an unforgivable breach of my privacy and my right as an older teen to choose for myself. I still feel this way now that I have a daughter of my own.

I was and am still very frum, but I read absolutely every kind of trash. I would be very sad now to see my daughter reading such things, because she is so pure and I want her to only know beautiful things, but it is absolutely her business. I do not think that the most torrid romances have any lasting harm because they are so ridiculous. Fox made a very insightful point that many of these romances actually promote good old-fashioned family values. There are things I read that I regret and still try to block from my mind, but these were not the romances but the "intellectual" books in which people used each other in very ugly ways. These are the books I will warn my daughter away from. BE"H she should always be so pure!