what do you think about this???

zaq

Tue, Oct 04 2011, 12:38 am

mom71 wrote:

and by the way girls in my community don't get married at 18. She has quite a few more years. I definitly don't want her getting married with those thoughts and images.

I suggest you hide your Shir haShirim, then. Honestly--you don;t want your dd to have "those" thoughts and images, yet you expect her to be ready, willing, and able to hop into bed with a young man, do what has to be done despite being completely ignorant about it, and not be horrified at best, traumatized at worst, by the process?

It may interest you to know, that a surprising number of very sheltered frum couples are unable to conceive, not because of any physical dysfunction but because of ignorance. their parents do such an excellent job keeping them away from "those thoughts and images" that they don't properly consummate their relationship. if they're lucky they see a physician who knows enough about their lifestyle to ask the right questions and set them straight. If they're not so lucky...too bad.

amother

Tue, Oct 04 2011, 1:11 am

I think you should just use your awareness to talk to her when she gets a bit older. Just as you can't control what she will read as an adult, at 17 it is totally normal to want to read such books. Some girls find them earlier, some later, some are just not interested. Either way, this is your daughter, and she has read the books. So now what? I think you do NOTHING at all. Leave her alone. Let her read her fill, and eventually they get boring as they are all the same. At the worst, it will help her have a better marriage, at best, she will realize that she does not need all that trash in her mind and will read other things. I think I read my first awful book at the age of 12. So I didn't understand most of it anyway. But it was exciting.
Do I ever read those things today? No of course not! Who has the time for that? But some of it stays with you, and it's not all that bad either.

amother

Tue, Oct 04 2011, 6:35 am

I don't think there is a problem with anybody reading these books in the sense that they should not know about it, girls should know and really boys should too perhaps more than girls even. I think it is ok to read them. it is rare for these books to contain violence and rape. they are really completely romantic and very passionate, with graphic s-xual descriptions sometimes and language. the only thing that would concern me would be that your daughter has sufficient understanding that the way Judaism views this subject is much more spiritual and holy than this. so long as she has this difference regimented in her mind, and reads the story purely as an escape I think it is ok. even it is good to read as these books are about "love", in a real way, despite being overly romantic (in a good way), and real, passionate feelings which may be good for her read about. as others said, in reality, this may be a very good way for her to learn about relations (on a non spiritual, but basic way). provided she receives a Jewish education on the matter at the same time, it is ok.

little_mage

Tue, Oct 04 2011, 7:02 am

By the time I was 17, the idea of my parents controlling my reading was ludicrous. I'm not a big romance reader, although I am pretty voracious, so I will read just about anything, particularly if I was away from home and borrowing books (like at camp).
Now, I have some books that are pretty graphic. Personally, I do tend to skim the graphic sections, but those books are still on our bookshelves and aren't going anywhere, because they are actually good books. My husband and I have already talked about how we aren't really going to censor our children's reading-we might tell them that we don't think this book is appropriate yet, and why, but we probably aren't going to flat out ban anything.
As for unrealistic expectations-by 17, I should hope you know that books are only fiction. However, since my husband and I read the same books, especially in the early days of our marriage when we were having some intimacy problems, we actually tried using the books to help us. My husband read a passage out loud (obviously, this isn't something your daughter should be doing yet-I'm just trying to show positive examples). In many ways, I think that having some romance reading under my belt was good, because it let me know what kind of things could happen. I don't think it did anything to diminish the quality or holiness of my marriage.
And for a final thought-be glad she's reading books and not watching the romantic movies. Personally, I find reading about stuff like that much better then watching it on a screen.

shabbatiscoming

Tue, Oct 04 2011, 7:31 am

Faigy86 wrote:

Just from my experience teaching teenagers, it sounds like you should have a discussion that may sound a bit like a pre-kallah class shmooze... She should hear about the fact that reading things like that will diminish the kedusha that she can potentially have and she will be creating dangerous comparisons that will complicate her marriage. It shouldn't come as an accusation about the horrible thing she's done, but more as an off-hand discussion that now that she is getting older, it is important for her to understand that her taava to read these books now, can be harmful for her later on. And that there is a yiddish perspective and it would be a chaval for her to bring the secular perspective into her life now...

I totally disagree. I read pretty trashy novels when I was younger and I do not do any comparing of those books to my husband. Those are books, this is real life.
And Im sorry, but how is reading about something diminishing the kedusha with ones husband? Please explain that.

mom71

Tue, Oct 04 2011, 8:07 am

Dear Zaq, I don't know why you are sounding so harsh. Why do I need to hide my shir hshirim? I think you are misunderstanding me. My daughter knows more "about this topic" now, than I knew when I got married. She is Boruch Hashem not "That" sheltered. But that dosen't mean I would like her to read those kind of books and have the wrong kind of images and thoughts. I am actually taking everyones suggestions (which happens to be my husbands as well) to just let her. There is nothing I can really do. She is 17 and I won't control every step of her life like my mother did to me. I will do my part. I will do my best to keep on giving her the love that she needs and try to guide in the right direction. With Hashem's help all will be good.

zaq

Tue, Oct 04 2011, 9:10 am

mom71 wrote:

Why do I need to hide my shir hshirim? .

Why do I need to hide my Shir Hashirim, asks the mother who objects to her daughter acquiring [inappropriate] images and thoughts prior to marriage. Let me count the ways:

"Let him kiss me with the kisses of his mouth for thy love is better than wine...his left hand is under my head and his right hand embraces me...thy belly is as a heap of wheat...thy two breasts are as two fawns, twins of a gazelle...my beloved is as a bundle of myrrh between my breasts...His legs are as pillars of marble, set upon sockets of fine gold...His mouth is most sweet...The roundings of thy thighs are like the links of a chain... Thy navel is like a round goblet... thy belly is like a heap of wheat ...

thy stature is like to a palm-tree, and thy breasts to clusters of grapes...I will climb up into the palm-tree, I will take hold of the branches thereof; and let thy breasts be as clusters of the vine...And the roof of thy mouth like the best wine, that glideth down smoothly for my beloved, moving gently the lips of those that are asleep...I am a wall, and my breasts like the towers thereof."

I didn't make that up, and neither did a Harlequin hack. Protest though you may about how the book is an allegory and all twin images refer to Moses and Aaron or the two Luchot and the lover is the KBH and the beloved is Bnei Yisrael and so on, you cannot escape the fact that the imagery is intensely, lushly secksual. If you don't want your dd getting ideas--ideas which she already has, anyway, if as you claim she knows about "all that"--then you'd best hope her Hebrew is not too good and make sure the only edition of this megillah she ever sees is the Artscroll one.

Fox

Tue, Oct 04 2011, 10:15 am

mom71 wrote:

But that dosen't mean I would like her to read those kind of books and have the wrong kind of images and thoughts.

As another poster alluded to, there is a very fine line between the concept of tznius in matters of s-xuality and the concept that s-x is dirty or shameful. It's a subtle distinction, and it's not always easy to convey the difference to teenagers -- or even adults. And, of course, living in a society in which everything is s-xualized to a great degree, our own radars are often askew in these matters.

Now, I obviously don't know precisely what kind of books your DD is reading, but if they're typical of most romance novels -- even very graphic ones -- I'm not entirely certain that the "images" and "thoughts" are truly so wrong.

First, your DD seems to grasp that these books are not appropriate for bringing to the dinner table or leaving on the couch. Granted, she is attempting to avoid your disapproval, but in the process, she is getting excellent exercise for her innate "tznius muscles"; she is putting into practice the concept that not everything is appropriate for a public venue.

Second, the images she is getting are in the context of loving, committed relationships which almost always include marriage and children depicted as a worthwhile and enviable way of life. Hedonistic characters are portrayed as unhappy and unfulfilled, and true emotional and s-xual fulfillment is depicted as occurring only in committed, monogamous relationships. The heroines are never the flashy women in miniskirts and stilettos, but rather the more modest sisters and best friends of such women. Internal values such as integrity, respect, and compassion always win out over beauty, popularity, and cruelty.

So while I don't want to be taken as an apologist for explicit fiction, I think that there is more in the romance genre that supports the frum view of love, s-x, and family than detracts from it.

Faigy86

Tue, Oct 04 2011, 10:21 am

shabbatiscoming wrote:

Faigy86 wrote:

It could be that if someone comes from a more open society, the images they see and read about don't impact them as much, but it seems that this girl comes from a very sheltered home and these images will be much more real than anything else she'll hear about from any other source. What I've seen is that these books are much more damaging to someone from a very sheltered home.
The reason why reading about something would dimimish the kedusha is if her first impressions are of tumah, it will be very hard for her to replace those impressions with the heiligekeit of the yiddish perspective.

Fox

Tue, Oct 04 2011, 10:44 am

Faigy86 wrote:

What I've seen is that these books are much more damaging to someone from a very sheltered home.
The reason why reading about something would dimimish the kedusha is if her first impressions are of tumah, it will be very hard for her to replace those impressions with the heiligekeit of the yiddish perspective.

Can you explain this a little more? I'm not trying to argue, but I find this very confusing.

The vast majority of women I know claim to have first learned "the facts of life" from older siblings, cousins, and classmates. Not to mention the role of summer camp, which seems to exist at least in part to provide a forum for the transmission of information about these matters. It seems that very, very few young women in even the most sheltered communities show up for kallah classes with truly no idea of what they'll be learning. So how much heiligekeit is really connected with their first impressions and images?

I'm also a little confused as to the conflict with the Yiddish perspective. Obviously, these are non jewish books, but that's a separate discussion. However, the core values in these books seem to me to be far more consistent with Yiddish values than those of non-romance genres.

Again, I'm not trying to be an apologist for explicit writing, but as an avid reader across a number of genres, I routinely find more disturbing themes and values portrayed in literary fiction, for example. I'd be far less disturbed to find my DD's hidden copy of Jayne Ann Krentz than discover her immersed in the latest critically-acclaimed Jonathan Franzen.

Faigy86

Tue, Oct 04 2011, 10:54 am

Fox - I don't know what sort of upbringing you had, but I never learned anything from sisters, friends, or camp friends. hmmm, maybe I should have been anonymous, but when a friend of mine (while we were older teenagers) told me that she was pregnant, it took someone else's question for me to realize that she had a boyfriend... The illegal things that I had read at that point included The Secret of Jewish Feminity while I was babysitting somewhere. Yes, I think that any other knowledge - including what you consider to be old-fashioned family values in a romance novel would have shterred my impression of the kedusha.

amother

Tue, Oct 04 2011, 5:20 pm

Fox wrote:

I may shock some people with my response, but here goes: I wouldn't worry too much about a 17-year-old reading romance novels.

Here's why:

Romance literature, whether the innocent or soft [filth] variety, follows a standard format. Boy and girl meet, usually under trying conditions; boy and girl resist attraction for various reasons; boy and girl become involved; relationship is tested by outside forces; boy and girl overcome difficulties and live happily ever after (or "HEA" as they say in the romance book industry).

So while we might prefer that these books minimize s-xual content, they are perhaps the only literature that consistently promotes and endorses what we would consider positive family values. Many literary novels, for example, almost seem to take delight in focusing on family dysfunctions and hypocrisy, as if bad parenting, adultery, and abuse are somehow more "real" than doggedly building a relationship and tackling obstacles.

New amother here.

What about the fact that half these books promote infidelity for the sake of true love? How are those promoting good family values?

I was also a big reader and read plenty of trash as a teen. Many of the ones I remember involve someone else's husband/boyfriend etc.

I really don't need my kid doubting her marriage because her neighbor's husband is gentler/sweeter/kinder/her soul-mate.

jewels

Tue, Oct 04 2011, 6:01 pm

Op to answer your question, yes its totally normal for teenagers to be curious and to hide things from their parents. I did when I was that age, books, magazines, I even lied about sleeping over at a friends house when I was really meeting a boy. I was young and stupid and I come from a fairly yeshivish family although not necessarily a sheltered one. It didn't screw me up for life and I had a really good open minded kallah teacher who prepared me for marriage the right way. Teenagers though are very impressionable and a romance novel isn't exactly the best way to learn about s*x and love and marriage. However I agree that you can't confront her about them because then she'll never trust you. Do you have the type of relationship with her where you can maybe out for some alone time with her and just talk about girl things? While I never had a relationship like that with my mother I had friends that did and I was always kind of jealous they could tell their moms everything without being scared. Maybe then you'll be able to I've her a more reaslitic outlook then a romance novel would.

Zaq, not quite sure it's really appropriate to start quoting shir hashirim like that. I'm not either sure what point you're trying to make? There are plenty of s*xual scenes in the Torah, Boaz and Rus, Esther, to name a couple. Noones ever been caught with a Megillah under their bed and it's just wrong to even bring it up in the same discussion as a romance novel. IMHO.

Fox

Tue, Oct 04 2011, 6:27 pm

Faigy86 wrote:

I was really basing my question on previous conversations here on imamother, where many, many women cited siblings, cousins, and class/bunkmates as their first exposure to these matters. Obviously, this is hardly scientific, but it caused a lot of amusement at the time because the experience was so common across all other lines. Women from Chassidishe backgrounds; women from MO backgrounds; women from non-observant background . . . everyone bonded over that experience. Obviously it's not universal, but it seems to be pretty common.

amother wrote:

What about the fact that half these books promote infidelity for the sake of true love? How are those promoting good family values?

I was also a big reader and read plenty of trash as a teen. Many of the ones I remember involve someone else's husband/boyfriend etc.

Huh? I don't know what books you were reading, but I don't think I've ever seen even a relatively raunchy romance that included infidelity. On the contrary, I would argue that the theme of adultery is far more common in literary fiction. I enjoy many of Anne Tyler's books, for example. None of them (at least that I remember) are in the least bit explicit, but a number of them treat infidelity very casually. Divorce, too, is often treated as a ho-hum occurrence rather than an option of last resort.

Don't get me wrong: I am not saying, "Run out and read romance novels." My only point is that we need to accurately analyze what we take away from reading, and that it's not always obvious.

Let me give you a concrete example: Several weeks ago, there was a thread discussing a particularly crazy "letter to the editor" published in a popular frum newspaper that was stirring up controversy. I don't actively forbid my kids from reading the paper, I don't bring it into my home, either. Why? Because even though the paper is ostensibly frum, it magnifies machlokes by publishing letters and responses from people without demonstrable qualifications or knowledge. Now, I'm sure many people would think, "Oh, brother! How can she read a romance novel but turn up her nose at the Yated?" My answer would be that s-x is only prohibited under certain circumstances, but it is never permissible to stir up machlokes.

I applaud anyone who avoids all non-Jewish books. Unfortunately, I'm too voracious a reader, and I was introduced to secular literature at an early age, thus acquiring a taste for it. But I really believe that we have to look deeper into the messages conveyed by various text-based media.

amother

Tue, Oct 04 2011, 6:41 pm

Faigy86 wrote:

shabbatiscoming wrote:

Faigy86 wrote:

I agree with the statement I bolded. Like I have posted earlier since my initial exposure was to the secular view on s*x even after learning the jewish view I still find it hard to really believe that what I am doing is a mitzva and is kadosh. (provided its done in the right time) That being said, I understand that kids/teenagers are going to find out about s*x from somewhere so therefore it s important to give them the jewish view as soon as possible so that they dont get the wrong idea.

amother

Sat, Oct 08 2011, 4:26 pm

is she being taught about the Jewish view on love and marriage and relations well, and when I say well I don't mean in a lecturing/technical way, but in a caring/kind way and also in a way which isn't just about laws, laws, laws but is highlighting for her the beauty and sacredness of this aspect of life

I come from a secular background so I guess you could say it was the opposite for me, I grew up being able to read these kinds of books freely no problem, watch films etc, but learning about the holiness and sanctity of relations according to my religion made me realise how primitive the secular world is, so just make sure that she is being taught Jewish education effectively and well, that's really all you need to make sure, you would be surprised how intuitive they can be