If not for the One Hashem, is it a mitzva?

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Isramom8

Sat, Jan 28 2012, 3:50 pm

If a Jew does some mitzvos but believes in Yoshke, do the mitzvos count/are they worth anything? Someone I know is innocently "trying to be the best Jew he can". But he thinks that means believeing in J.

B"H

Sat, Jan 28 2012, 5:48 pm

I'm pretty sure that no matter what a person's intentions are, a mitzvah is still a mitzvah. someone correct me if I'm wrong.

shalhevet

Sat, Jan 28 2012, 11:26 pm

Mitzvos need kavanna. I learnt the most basic level of kavanna is knowing you are doing a mitzva - eg if someone had no idea it was seder night and found some "crackers" lying around and just happened to eat them, and someone had left some matzas there - that wouldn't be a mitzva.

Presumably if someone believes in J he isn't doing any mitzva because Hashem told him - but for J, so I would think it isn't a mitzva.

Isramom8

Sat, Jan 28 2012, 11:33 pm

But he is not separating J from Hashem. He wants to serve G-d.

shalhevet

Sat, Jan 28 2012, 11:39 pm

What do you mean? So everything he does is avoda zara (or az beshituf), because he is doing it to serve J.

Isramom8

Sat, Jan 28 2012, 11:44 pm

shalhevet wrote:

What do you mean? So everything he does is avoda zara (or az beshituf), because he is doing it to serve J.

DD learned in Ofakim that shituf is a machlokes of AZ.

He wants to be a GOOD JEW. That is his kavana.

shalhevet

Sat, Jan 28 2012, 11:56 pm

Isramom8 wrote:

shalhevet wrote:

What do you mean? So everything he does is avoda zara (or az beshituf), because he is doing it to serve J.

DD learned in Ofakim that shituf is a machlokes of AZ.

He wants to be a GOOD JEW. That is his kavana.

If I want to be a good Jew by murdering anyone who doesn't agree with me, because I decided that's what being a good Jew means, does that make it a mitzva?

He isn't being a good Jew.

And az beshituf is a machlokes if it's assur for a non-Jew, not a Jew AFAIR.

Isramom8

Sun, Jan 29 2012, 3:24 am

Oh, not for a Jew, Shalhevet? Interesting. I'll ask DD to check at seminary.
This is a tinok shenishba, literally born into AZ. Makes a difference?

freidasima

Sun, Jan 29 2012, 3:35 am

I was taught it is more complicated. Because it depends exactly what he thinks Yoshekeleh is. Is he a "G-d"? That's AZ. Is he the "son of G-d"? Less so. Is he a prophet? Even less of a problem. It's all a matter of degrees.

That having been said, Isramom you get to know a very interesting group of people there!

Isramom8

Sun, Jan 29 2012, 4:00 am

No no FS, I am not talking about a member of my community! I'm talking about a distant (Jewish) cousin, raised in another religion.

His belief is that J was the messiah.

Shalhevet, yes, DD says that her teacher said that for a Yid, belief in shutafut is assur. I hope that Hashem is more lenient with a tinok shenishba.

BeershevaBubby

Sun, Jan 29 2012, 4:34 am

People who believe that Jes@s Chr!st is the messiah are called Chr!stians for a reason. Or they might be called Jews 4 Jes@s, but they're not recognized as Jewish observant.

EvenI

Sun, Jan 29 2012, 4:35 am

Isramom8 wrote:

How do you know he is considered a tinok shenishba?

Isramom8

Sun, Jan 29 2012, 5:20 am

EvenI wrote:

Isramom8 wrote:

How do you know he is considered a tinok shenishba?

If he isn't, who would be?

saw50st8

Sun, Jan 29 2012, 5:57 am

Isramom, don't worry about Hashem judging your cousin.

I've been told that you get schar if your intentions are clear for actual mitzvos. So even if he is conflating Jes-s with Hashem, he is doing it with clear intentions and would get "credit.

EvenI

Sun, Jan 29 2012, 9:29 am

Isramom8 wrote:

EvenI wrote:

Isramom8 wrote:

How do you know he is considered a tinok shenishba?

If he isn't, who would be?

I'm a bit hazy on tinok shenishba, but I don't think it's so clear cut that you can tell from a human vantage point who is one, and I also don't see why we have to be able to find someone somewhere who is one,

How do you know if in someone's life there isn't some some opportunity offered to him to think and explore in a way that would lead to Hashem and Torah and Mitzvos? We know that, especially in this generation, people come from all sorts of backgrounds and discover Hashem. In fact, it seems to me it's more straightforward to say that Hashem arranges all sorts of tailor made stimuli that a person can use to make a unique kiddush Hashem than to say that Hashem puts a person into a situation in which he will not be able to mekadesh shem shamayim his whole life. And, according to my way of thinking, there is hope for your cousin, but probably not through his current derech. I don't like the idea of saying that this is what he believes and there is nothing he can do about it.

grin

Mon, Jan 30 2012, 11:59 am

shalhevet wrote:

I learned from the tanya just the opposite - if he happens to eat those "crackers" w/o even knowing it was leil seder, he still did the act and it counts as a mitzva, as opposed to him having deep kavanot but not eating matza at all.

freidasima

Mon, Jan 30 2012, 12:34 pm

Grin, moshiach is coming!
I'm not lubavitch by far but I was taught the same thing!

EvenI

Mon, Jan 30 2012, 1:47 pm

DH says everyone agrees that lechatchila a mitzva needs kavonna but he thinks it's a machlokes if bedieved a person did a mitzva without kavanna whether it counts as anything.

EvenI

Mon, Jan 30 2012, 1:48 pm

He also thinks someone like this could have a din of tinok shenishba.

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