 |
|
 |
 |
|
|
Forum
-> Relationships
-> Guests
amother
|
 Sun, Feb 12 2012, 3:07 am
I am the amother with the sick husband who has posted about how we used to have lots guests now we have less. Just for reference. We live in a small but popular town in EY
So this shabbos a boy we know came by about 2 hours before shabbos and said he had a friend who was here for shabbos with no place to eat, asked if we had room for him friday night. I, being me, first gave the boy mussar about how one has a chiyuv of hachanas shabbos and he should have made sure he had a place to eat, just like he made sure he got on a bus to go where he wanted for shabbos. In the end I did agree to have him. We ended up with another 2 "extra" guests as well. We had 2 chickens (big #2s) for 10 adults, not a lot, but not too little either. Which was served with potatoes following challah, chumus, a big salad, fish and soup with lokshen. In the middle of the main course I saw that there was a few pieces of chicken on the plate on the far side of the table after everyone took a serving, except dh. Dh didn't take in the first place because he wasn't feeling well enough to eat. I should have put a piece on the side for him. Dh asked for a piece of chicken so I asked for it to be passed back. The answer was there was no more. I was surprised because just 5 minutes before I saw there was a few pieces.
Then I happened to look over at Mr. can I come at the last minute's plate and see a few pieces of chicken on it. After the meal was over and I cleared plates I was really nosy and examined his bones (yes, horrible hostessing, I know). He had taken- two wings, a thigh, a leg, a neck and a breast. The breast was not even half eaten and the other pieces still all had meat on the bones. I was literally nauseated by the waste and the fact that someone could invite themselves to a meal and then do that. I was tempted all shabbos to let him know, somehow, that what he did was unacceptable. I fought the urge, but I really hope somehow he figured out from the fact that he knew that dh did not get a piece of chicken that what he did was not okay, and he will not do that in the future. As far as what I know when you go away for shabbos to someone of unknown financial means, and especially if you know that they don't have so much (obvious from clear lacking around the home,a very sick head of household, plastic, non matching "dining room set", etc), and you asked to come, and were not invited you look at the serving plate, look at how many people are at the table and anyway take ONE piece of chicken at a time, if you want seconds you wait until everyone has had, then take ONE more piece. If you are not going to eat a whole piece you take half or find someone to split with, if it is clear there is not an abundance.
Thoughts? I was right not try and educate him, right?
| |
|
| Back to top |
 0
 0
|
kalsee
|
Sun, Feb 12 2012, 3:36 am
How old were these boys? If the boy was 13-16? I feel like you definitely could have spoken to him, he's your childrens' age and a mother figure to them.
Older then that is trickier, it's like criticizing an adult.
| |
|
| Back to top |
0
0
|
amother
|
Sun, Feb 12 2012, 3:38 am
reposting more readably
I am the amother with the sick husband who has posted about how we used to have lots guests now we have less. Just for reference. We live in a small but popular town in EY
So this shabbos a boy we know came by about 2 hours before shabbos and said he had a friend who was here for shabbos with no place to eat, asked if we had room for him friday night. I, being me, first gave the boy mussar about how one has a chiyuv of hachanas shabbos and he should have made sure he had a place to eat, just like he made sure he got on a bus to go where he wanted for shabbos. In the end I did agree to have him.
We ended up with another 2 "extra" guests as well. We had 2 chickens (big #2s) for 10 adults, not a lot, but not too little either. Which was served with potatoes following challah, chumus, a big salad, fish and soup with lokshen. In the middle of the main course I saw that there was a few pieces of chicken on the plate on the far side of the table after everyone took a serving, except dh. Dh didn't take in the first place because he wasn't feeling well enough to eat. I should have put a piece on the side for him. Dh asked for a piece of chicken so I asked for it to be passed back. The answer was there was no more. I was surprised because just 5 minutes before I saw there was a few pieces.
Then I happened to look over at Mr. can I come at the last minute's plate and see a few pieces of chicken on it. After the meal was over and I cleared plates I was really nosy and examined his bones (yes, horrible hostessing, I know). He had taken- two wings, a thigh, a leg, a neck and a breast. The breast was not even half eaten and the other pieces still all had meat on the bones. I was literally nauseated by the waste and the fact that someone could invite themselves to a meal and then do that.
I was tempted all shabbos to let him know, somehow, that what he did was unacceptable. I fought the urge, but I really hope somehow he figured out from the fact that he knew that dh did not get a piece of chicken that what he did was not okay, and he will not do that in the future.
As far as what I know when you go away for shabbos to someone of unknown financial means, and especially if you know that they don't have so much (obvious from clear lacking around the home,a very sick head of household, plastic, non matching "dining room set", etc), and you asked to come, and were not invited you look at the serving plate, look at how many people are at the table and anyway take ONE piece of chicken at a time, if you want seconds you wait until everyone has had, then take ONE more piece. If you are not going to eat a whole piece you take half or find someone to split with, if it is clear there is not an abundance.
Thoughts? I was right not try and educate him, right?
| |
|
| Back to top |
0
0
|
abound
|
Sun, Feb 12 2012, 3:38 am
He was wrong, rude and selfish. But hachnosis orchim does not include educating our guest. (However difficult that may be sometimes).
At one point, I told DH to stop bringing home a certain guy who would put his skin and bones on the table near his plate....................
DH explained to me that part of hachnosas orchim was having him and I would get a mitzva doing it happily, but boy was that difficult!!!
| |
|
| Back to top |
0
0
|
ora_43
|
Sun, Feb 12 2012, 3:45 am
I wouldn't say anything. But I'd be conflicted about it too.
On the one hand, I think being a good hostess includes not making guests feel uncomfortable about things like how much they eat/what they eat/etc.
OTOH, I feel kind of bad not telling a guest like that (almost always a 20-something male) how to behave. Usually they need regular Shabbat hosting, and also they'd like to get married, and so it feels like it'd be best for them to know how to not turn off both hosts and potential dates. So I don't tell them, but then I feel guilty, kind of like if I knew a friend's skirt was stuck in her tights but didn't say anything.
| |
|
| Back to top |
0
0
|
In the kitchen
|
Sun, Feb 12 2012, 3:53 am
OP I feel your pain, I can't stand the waste and inconsiderateness (real word?). I am guessing that the boy just isn't at the point where he understands finances very well. I know once I saw a couple who had recently made aliyah and they were served salmon and picked a bit at it and then it ended up in the garbage. Salmon costs a fortune! They had no clue.
I asked the wife later if she likes salmon and she said only one particular way. I told her very politely that next time an Israeli invites her she should tell her beforehand or give the portion back before touching the plate because salmon costs a lot of money.
I am not sure if it sank in, but I felt something HAD to be said.
I don't know what to do for your situation though because you yourself were the hostess. Kol ha kavod for holding your tongue, I am sure you will get schar for your hachnossas orchim.
| |
|
| Back to top |
0
0
|
Raizle
|
Sun, Feb 12 2012, 4:12 am
I wouldn't say anything but in the future put aside a piece for your husband if he can't eat it right away.
I hope that in the zchus of your hachnosos orchim your husband's health will improve.
Refuah shelaima
kudos to you for even having guests at such a time in the first place.
| |
|
| Back to top |
0
0
|
amother
|
Sun, Feb 12 2012, 4:13 am
| kalsee wrote: | How old were these boys? If the boy was 13-16? I feel like you definitely could have spoken to him, he's your childrens' age and a mother figure to them.
Older then that is trickier, it's like criticizing an adult. |
17- 20.
A bachur in a post high school yeshiva is not exactly an adult, imo. Someone who shows up to a town with no plans for shabbos meals not because of any catastrophe is not acting very adult.
abound- I am a "rebbetzin" and the boys who are regulars I do have no problem educating. Having ben bayises is not about hachnasas orchim alone, it is about helping them out in life. Helping someone be a person that people want to host and a boy some girl will be proud to marry is also a chessed. Were he one of my regular boys I would have almost no question about saying something, in a way that wasn't embarrassing. American bachrim and even adults do not have to feel bad when they don't understand the norms in a foreign country, as In the kitchen's example.
Ora- exactly.
| |
|
| Back to top |
0
0
|
abound
|
Sun, Feb 12 2012, 4:16 am
| amother wrote: | | kalsee wrote: | How old were these boys? If the boy was 13-16? I feel like you definitely could have spoken to him, he's your childrens' age and a mother figure to them.
Older then that is trickier, it's like criticizing an adult. |
17- 20.
A bachur in a post high school yeshiva is not exactly an adult, imo. Someone who shows up to a town with no plans for shabbos meals not because of any catastrophe is not acting very adult.
abound- I am a "rebbetzin" and the boys who are regulars I do have no problem educating. Having ben bayises is not about hachnasas orchim alone, it is about helping them out in life. Helping someone be a person that people want to host and a boy some girl will be proud to marry is also a chessed. Were he one of my regular boys I would have almost no question about saying something, in a way that wasn't embarrassing. American bachrim and even adults do not have to feel bad when they don't understand the norms in a foreign country, as In the kitchen's example.
Ora- exactly. |
Rebbitzen and Hostess are two different worlds completely. When I have guests that come in for a meal that have nothing to do with me, I treat them as such. A rebbitzen I am not, but when I have cousins or other guests that come to me often, it is a different story. I understood from above, that he was a one time guest.
| |
|
| Back to top |
0
0
|
chocolate moose
|
Sun, Feb 12 2012, 6:02 am
There is provably a tactful way you could have said something. Another idea is that you shouldn't put out all the food on the table like that.
And next time you get such a phone call, have a few names to give out - not yours !
| |
|
| Back to top |
0
0
|
amother
|
Sun, Feb 12 2012, 6:06 am
| chocolate moose wrote: |
And next time you get such a phone call, have a few names to give out - not yours ! |
It wasn't a phone call, they came to my door about 3 hours before shabbos. I don't have anyone else to give them.
| Quote: |
Rebbitzen and Hostess are two different worlds completely. |
What do you mean? Can't you be both?
| |
|
| Back to top |
0
0
|
33055
|
Sun, Feb 12 2012, 6:27 am
I would not have said anything either.
We once hosted some guests just to sleep over for a neighbor. It was the first two days of Pesach and then the Shabbos immediately following. We were invited out for the Sudars and were leaving Motzi Shabbos.
The first night our guests ate all the food for our next day sudar. They decided they did not like the neighbor's cooking. They continued to eat the food set aside for meals even though I explained we were limited on our resources. Short of posting myself in the kitchen, I could not think of what to do.
| |
|
| Back to top |
0
0
|
Raisin
|
Sun, Feb 12 2012, 6:30 am
I would ask the boys friend to mention something to him. Just that, you know, chicken is expensive, and its a waste if you take so much food and don't eat it.
Even if your husband had food to eat its still a huge waste of food.
(I always leave one or two peices of chicken in the tray...)
| |
|
| Back to top |
0
0
|
markmywords
|
Sun, Feb 12 2012, 6:43 am
I'd speak to the rosh yeshiva.
This is a middos issue.
He's still a kid and isn't in the stage where he gets financial limitations, etc.
I know others might think this is limited to this particular boy, but in my opinion, this is something that could be happening with others.
I would point out the last minute invite, the taking of numerous portions at a table full of guests and not flush with food.
They need to be sensitized to other people.
| |
|
| Back to top |
0
0
|
Simple1
|
Sun, Feb 12 2012, 6:56 am
| In the kitchen wrote: | OP I feel your pain, I can't stand the waste and inconsiderateness (real word?). I am guessing that the boy just isn't at the point where he understands finances very well. I know once I saw a couple who had recently made aliyah and they were served salmon and picked a bit at it and then it ended up in the garbage. Salmon costs a fortune! They had no clue.
I asked the wife later if she likes salmon and she said only one particular way. I told her very politely that next time an Israeli invites her she should tell her beforehand or give the portion back before touching the plate because salmon costs a lot of money.
I am not sure if it sank in, but I felt something HAD to be said.
I don't know what to do for your situation though because you yourself were the hostess. Kol ha kavod for holding your tongue, I am sure you will get schar for your hachnossas orchim. |
Maybe she thought she would like the salmon? I think this has to be factored in with guests that things will be tried but not finished. If you can't afford to serve salmon without getting upset about it, then serve something cheaper. Save the salmon for when you are alone or when you have guests that you know like it. I do distinctly remember serving a plated meal for dinner to my nephew and he didn't touch the salad that I worked so hard on and I had to toss it. But that's life.
As to OP, the guest sounds clueless, but I do agree with someones dh here that that's part of Hachnosas Orchim - there are all types. I do think there are people who are very great at hachnasos orchim and don't let these things bother them too much. (I'm not necessarily one of them at this point in my life). I think you should have told him that you weren't up to having guests that week, and would prefer he find somewhere else to go. Easier said than done when you feel bad leaving him stranded.
| |
|
| Back to top |
0
0
|
2cents
|
Sun, Feb 12 2012, 7:12 am
just as a point of interest -- the Rambam talks in Hilchos teshuva about aveiros which "teshuva can't be done for" (leaving aside what that means). one of the 3 or 4 catagories is someone who partakes in a meal that is not enough for the baal habayis.
 any moreshet people here? Rabbi Kass's example was seminary girls who call to ask to come for a shabbos meal and, in his words, after ascertaining that you're home for shabbos and accepting guests, say "also my 5 friends want to come"
| |
|
| Back to top |
0
0
|
freidasima
|
Sun, Feb 12 2012, 7:23 am
You are all such good people.
That's why I don't host any more except family and friends that I know. Never strangers. Certainly not bochurim who I don't know and who might eat us out of house and home and make our shabbos table miserable. Certainly not seminary girls who want us to host "just another five girls".
You are good people.
I would cry if my sick husband wouldn't have food because some unthinking, undermannered and self centered yeshiva bochur whom I didn't know had eaten my husband's portions and not even eaten it! Over the years I've learned to be selfish. I don't want to cry at my shabbos table. I don't want to be upset at my shabbos table and I don't want to secretly be terribly angry at my guests. So I don't invite and don't agree to such persons trying to push themselves or other people on me. Because there is ALWAYS another sucker who will host them, no matter, no worry. I host friends and family who know the drill and aren't selfish or self centered or clueless.
You are all such good people.
| |
|
| Back to top |
0
0
|
abound
|
Sun, Feb 12 2012, 7:30 am
| amother wrote: |
Rebbitzen and Hostess are two different worlds completely. |
What do you mean? Can't you be both?[/quote]
You can be both. But when you are not a rebbitzen, just a hostess, then you are not in the position to say anything. When you are a rebbitzen also then you also have the obligation or are at least in the position to educate him.
| |
|
| Back to top |
0
0
|
DrMom
|
Sun, Feb 12 2012, 7:43 am
| markmywords wrote: | I'd speak to the rosh yeshiva.
This is a middos issue.
He's still a kid and isn't in the stage where he gets financial limitations, etc.
I know others might think this is limited to this particular boy, but in my opinion, this is something that could be happening with others.
I would point out the last minute invite, the taking of numerous portions at a table full of guests and not flush with food.
They need to be sensitized to other people. |
I agree with this advice. Perhaps the rav could give a brief shiur about the importance of being a good guest and what this entails. He doesn't have to speak to this boy specifically (that would be embarassing for him) but to the yeshiva in general. You can bet there are others who are as oblivious as this bochur was.
| |
|
| Back to top |
0
0
|
causemommysaid
|
Sun, Feb 12 2012, 7:43 am
| Squishy wrote: | I would not have said anything either.
We once hosted some guests just to sleep over for a neighbor. It was the first two days of Pesach and then the Shabbos immediately following. We were invited out for the Sudars and were leaving Motzi Shabbos.
The first night our guests ate all the food for our next day sudar. They decided they did not like the neighbor's cooking. They continued to eat the food set aside for meals even though I explained we were limited on our resources. Short of posting myself in the kitchen, I could not think of what to do. |
That is so disturbing. couldnt the just eat cereal if they didnt like the food?
why are pple so strange and inconsiderate?
| |
|
| Back to top |
0
0
|
| Related Topics |
Replies |
Last Post |
|
|
Need opinion on right or wrong
|
14 |
Sun, Apr 21 2024, 6:05 am  |
|
|
Time sensitive!! Can I cook gefilte fish right after chicken
|
25 |
Thu, Apr 18 2024, 5:58 am |
|
|
Who is right in this situation
|
54 |
Wed, Apr 17 2024, 11:21 am |
|
|
Why can't I ever get this right?
|
10 |
Thu, Apr 04 2024, 1:46 pm |
|
|
Help me shop for the right bins please!
|
3 |
Tue, Apr 02 2024, 11:11 am |
|
|
Imamother may earn commission when you use our links to make a purchase.
© 2024 Imamother.com - All rights reserved
|  |
 |
|
 |
|
|
