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-> Relationships
-> Guests
Liba
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 Sun, Feb 12 2012, 10:51 am
| ysmommy wrote: | | Squishy wrote: | I would not have said anything either.
We once hosted some guests just to sleep over for a neighbor. It was the first two days of Pesach and then the Shabbos immediately following. We were invited out for the Sudars and were leaving Motzi Shabbos.
The first night our guests ate all the food for our next day sudar. They decided they did not like the neighbor's cooking. They continued to eat the food set aside for meals even though I explained we were limited on our resources. Short of posting myself in the kitchen, I could not think of what to do. |
That is so disturbing. couldnt the just eat cereal if they didnt like the food?
why are pple so strange and inconsiderate? |
Not that it makes stealing okay, or makes the story any less disturbing, but it was Pesach. Cereal wasn't really an option.
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ora_43
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Sun, Feb 12 2012, 11:33 am
A few people have mentioned understanding financial realities. There's so much more to this than finances, though.
I wouldn't expect a yeshiva guy to know the price of meat well enough to know if he's eating an expensive meal or a relatively cheap one, but I would expect him to make Shabbat plans in advance. And to not take fifth helpings before the host gets anything (even if OP's dh hadn't been too sick to eat at first - what about her? what about their kids? He should have made sure they had seconds, or that they didn't want any, before taking so much), especially if he showed up so late that there was no time to cook extra food for him.
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amother
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Sun, Feb 12 2012, 11:39 am
| Simple1 wrote: | | I think you should have told him that you weren't up to having guests that week, and would prefer he find somewhere else to go. Easier said than done when you feel bad leaving him stranded. |
We were up to having guests, it was supposed to be 3-4 . He was number 6, and had no other place to go.
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amother
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Sun, Feb 12 2012, 11:41 am
| 2cents wrote: | just as a point of interest -- the Rambam talks in Hilchos teshuva about aveiros which "teshuva can't be done for" (leaving aside what that means). one of the 3 or 4 catagories is someone who partakes in a meal that is not enough for the baal habayis.
 any moreshet people here? Rabbi Kass's example was seminary girls who call to ask to come for a shabbos meal and, in his words, after ascertaining that you're home for shabbos and accepting guests, say "also my 5 friends want to come" |
I'm a Shalhevet girl. Rabbi Kass rocks!
-OP
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willow
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Sun, Feb 12 2012, 12:07 pm
| DrMom wrote: | | markmywords wrote: | I'd speak to the rosh yeshiva.
This is a middos issue.
He's still a kid and isn't in the stage where he gets financial limitations, etc.
I know others might think this is limited to this particular boy, but in my opinion, this is something that could be happening with others.
I would point out the last minute invite, the taking of numerous portions at a table full of guests and not flush with food.
They need to be sensitized to other people. |
I agree with this advice. Perhaps the rav could give a brief shiur about the importance of being a good guest and what this entails. He doesn't have to speak to this boy specifically (that would be embarassing for him) but to the yeshiva in general. You can bet there are others who are as oblivious as this bochur was. |
I also agree. I can not imagine someone saying to a persons face something so humiliating (as wrong as he was).
The best thing is to talk to his Rov/Rebbe and that will have more impact then him just thinking you are a b**** (which you are not at all).
Op I feel for you what a terrible Shabbos guest.
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moonstone
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Sun, Feb 12 2012, 1:02 pm
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Pardon me, I know almost nothing about the yeshiva world, but is it considered normal to show up in a strange town 2 hours before Shabbat with no meal plan? This is just inconceivable to me.
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amother
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Sun, Feb 12 2012, 1:40 pm
| moonstone wrote: | | Pardon me, I know almost nothing about the yeshiva world, but is it considered normal to show up in a strange town 2 hours before Shabbat with no meal plan? This is just inconceivable to me. |
NO. This was not a yeshivish yeshiva guy, ftr.
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chocolate chips
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Sun, Feb 12 2012, 1:50 pm
OP I can totally understand that you are upset and if you do not want to say anything to him (might not be your place since he is older even though he didn't act it) then you should speak to his rav/friend that you know to speak to him.
A guest-manner is to not over eat and definitely not take more than you will finish.
I also know how annoying it is when a few hours before shabbos people turn up giving you little options but to invite them for the meals. My parents live in a town that is often frequented by tourists. You would think that these frum/Jewish people who are planning a huge vacation would plan their shabbos meals too right? These people would often walk into shul (groups ranging from 2-6) with absolutely no plans or food and expect people to invite them. And we are not talking about a place like yerushalayim I am talking OOT, few frum shomer shabbos people.
It is so annoying to the hostess but on the other hand it did teach us kids the real mitzvah of hachnosas orchim.
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amother
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Sun, Feb 12 2012, 3:24 pm
| In the kitchen wrote: | OP I feel your pain, I can't stand the waste and inconsiderateness (real word?). I am guessing that the boy just isn't at the point where he understands finances very well. I know once I saw a couple who had recently made aliyah and they were served salmon and picked a bit at it and then it ended up in the garbage. Salmon costs a fortune! They had no clue.
I asked the wife later if she likes salmon and she said only one particular way. I told her very politely that next time an Israeli invites her she should tell her beforehand or give the portion back before touching the plate because salmon costs a lot of money.
I am not sure if it sank in, but I felt something HAD to be said.
I don't know what to do for your situation though because you yourself were the hostess. Kol ha kavod for holding your tongue, I am sure you will get schar for your hachnossas orchim. |
I hope this doesnt sound nasty or hurtful, but if you are so poor that it hurts you to see the salmon wasted like that, maybe you have no business buying it in the first place.
If she ate the whole plate of salmon and then felt sick or nauseous all of Shabbos , would that that of made you feel better..
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Raisin
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Sun, Feb 12 2012, 3:36 pm
| amother wrote: | | In the kitchen wrote: | OP I feel your pain, I can't stand the waste and inconsiderateness (real word?). I am guessing that the boy just isn't at the point where he understands finances very well. I know once I saw a couple who had recently made aliyah and they were served salmon and picked a bit at it and then it ended up in the garbage. Salmon costs a fortune! They had no clue.
I asked the wife later if she likes salmon and she said only one particular way. I told her very politely that next time an Israeli invites her she should tell her beforehand or give the portion back before touching the plate because salmon costs a lot of money.
I am not sure if it sank in, but I felt something HAD to be said.
I don't know what to do for your situation though because you yourself were the hostess. Kol ha kavod for holding your tongue, I am sure you will get schar for your hachnossas orchim. |
I hope this doesnt sound nasty or hurtful, but if you are so poor that it hurts you to see the salmon wasted like that, maybe you have no business buying it in the first place.
If she ate the whole plate of salmon and then felt sick or nauseous all of Shabbos , would that that of made you feel better.. |
Oh, come on. It really bothers me when I see expensive food going to waste. Most of my guests are very thoughtful and will cut a peice of chicken or fish in half rather then let that happen. I very rarely have to throw away food like that. It's just plain stupid and wrong to throw away food, even if you are Bill Gates.
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Dolly Welsh
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Sun, Feb 12 2012, 3:54 pm
Dear OP, you slipped up in Mother Wolf department. Mother Wolf puts aside pieces for sick child or DH, in the kitchen. Only what's left over after family needs are met gets onto the table AT ALL. You are a very fine woman and much good will come to you for having these people for dinner, and for not saying anything. It's not their fault. They don't know any better.
Can Shabbos guests be asked sweetly "if they could bring a bottle of wine? I wonder if you could pick up two pounds of any fruit, on the way to my house? Or, I could use some cookies for dessert. Thank you so much! (Sweet smile.) It would be so helpful! Oh, you are so nice!"
Like that.
They can eat rice. It comes in ten pound bags, two dollars a pound. Fry up some onions to top it, with some celery tops for color, and you are almost there.
You have the complete admiration of everybody. Refuah Shleima for your DH. You are the princess of the held tongue. That brings light to a thousand generations yet unborn.
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yksraya
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Sun, Feb 12 2012, 3:58 pm
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I also host guests for shabos many times as my dh is dealing with kids at risk. I have a policy of serving the food divided per plate for the same reason.it's easier to put the food on a tray for everyone to help themselves but chances are the bachurim wouldn't consider that the other ones also need and one might take three portions and one or two will have nothing.I divide the chicken in the kitchen and serve everyone per plate.I really understand what you feel like saying to that guy cause many times I want to say something but I seal my lips shut. much hatzlacha and may your dh have a speedy recovery and may you be able to host many guests till 120 in good health.
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Dolly Welsh
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Sun, Feb 12 2012, 4:15 pm
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Right. And at Pesach, they can eat potatoes. They are also two dollars a pound.
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Simple1
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Sun, Feb 12 2012, 6:52 pm
| Raisin wrote: | | amother wrote: | | In the kitchen wrote: | OP I feel your pain, I can't stand the waste and inconsiderateness (real word?). I am guessing that the boy just isn't at the point where he understands finances very well. I know once I saw a couple who had recently made aliyah and they were served salmon and picked a bit at it and then it ended up in the garbage. Salmon costs a fortune! They had no clue.
I asked the wife later if she likes salmon and she said only one particular way. I told her very politely that next time an Israeli invites her she should tell her beforehand or give the portion back before touching the plate because salmon costs a lot of money.
I am not sure if it sank in, but I felt something HAD to be said.
I don't know what to do for your situation though because you yourself were the hostess. Kol ha kavod for holding your tongue, I am sure you will get schar for your hachnossas orchim. |
I hope this doesnt sound nasty or hurtful, but if you are so poor that it hurts you to see the salmon wasted like that, maybe you have no business buying it in the first place.
If she ate the whole plate of salmon and then felt sick or nauseous all of Shabbos , would that that of made you feel better.. |
Oh, come on. It really bothers me when I see expensive food going to waste. Most of my guests are very thoughtful and will cut a peice of chicken or fish in half rather then let that happen. I very rarely have to throw away food like that. It's just plain stupid and wrong to throw away food, even if you are Bill Gates. |
Salmon is often individually plated as an appetizer, in which case, it's not totally a guests fault if she tries it and doesn't finish it. If it was on a serving platter in the middle of the table, you'd have a point raisin. While a guest should be considerate, a gracious host shouldn't examine a guests eating habits (brought down in some sefer) and would be better off buying food in a more comfortable price range.
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OOTBubby
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Sun, Feb 12 2012, 7:17 pm
| Simple1 wrote: | | Salmon is often individually plated as an appetizer, in which case, it's not totally a guests fault if she tries it and doesn't finish it. If it was on a serving platter in the middle of the table, you'd have a point raisin. While a guest should be considerate, a gracious host shouldn't examine a guests eating habits (brought down in some sefer) and would be better off buying food in a more comfortable price range. |
I don't know about that. I'm often in places where salmon is plated for the appetizer and if I'd like some, but know I won't eat a whole piece, I have no problem asking the hostess to please serve me a quarter or half of a piece.
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amother
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Sun, Feb 12 2012, 8:50 pm
I was going to post this under my screenname, but chickened out.
Just to give you the yeshiva guy's side of the story. I grew up in a very well-to-do family. In our house, I honestly had no idea that meat was more expensive than chicken (we had it all the time) or that potatoes were cheaper. My mother always made a TON of food, and we ate a LOT. (I was slightly overweight, but only slightly.) I had no problem polishing off two or three pieces of chicken, several pieces of kugel, and samples of the other side dishes in one Shabbos meal. I never had any idea that this was not normal. My brothers ate much more than I did, especially as teenagers.
When I went to Israel for seminary, I honestly had no idea what these people's finances were like. The idea of "poor" was not part of my vocabulary, except perhaps in stories. What's funny is that I had friends in high school that now, thinking back, I realize were definitely not well off at all, but then I didn't differentiate. My parents did not spoil me (except maybe in terms of food), so I never really had more clothes, gadgets, whatever than they did. I was the youngest in my family of three, so I never really thought about what it would be like to be exhausted running around after little kids every day.
Now, as a kollel wife living on a budget (not a monthly handout), I feel horrible when I think about how I acted. Honestly, I don't remember much. I do know that I did not understand how much help it was to just take the kids out for a little bit, or at least to entertain them for a little bit. I also know that at some people's houses, I remember feeling desperately hungry, but there just wasn't enough food to go around. (Yes, I was dense. I really just figured it meant that the mother of the family hadn't remembered to cook enough, or had estimated wrong somehow.)
Reading through your story, I completely could have seen myself acting like that. Note that it doesn't seem like he took the chicken all at once at the beginning of the meal. He probably politely took a piece or two, ate them, and then saw that everyone at the table seemed to be finishing up, so he figured it was fine to take the rest. He was in no way thinking of your finances. He might even have left the breast until last and taken it thinkiing he was going to eat the whole thing, but then...realized that everyone else was already done and it would look weird to keep on eating. I've done that before.
Once he lives it himself (if he ever does), he'll understand. Until then, I don't know if he can. Or maybe he could, if you told him? I don't know. I know that certainly nobody ever told me. I surely never knew that salmon was so expensive, and I know people now who don't have to worry about money and eat it like it's potatoes! Now, obviously we stretchthe chicken as much as possible. I definitely feel badly when food is thrown out when it doesn't have to be, but I try to ignore it, especially when it's due to guests.
In a novel I read as a kid (I think it was "A Tree Grows in Brooklyn"?), coffee is rationed and eachp erson in the family can only h ave a given amount. But one daughter doesn't like the taste of coffee, just the smell of it and the feel of it in her hands. Against everyone else's advice, her mother still gives her her share of the coffee each morning, even though it gets spilled down the drain, because it's her cup and she does gain some pleasure from it. After all, she's not taking away more pleasure from anyone else than if she would actually drink it!
That's my ramble about this thread. I know how the guy seems, and yes maybe he should be educated. But I don't know if it's a lack of middos as much as a lack of knowledge. Maybe the lack of knowledge affects his middos; I don't know. I do know that there's hope. I would be a much better guest if I were back in seminary today. Thank you for those of you who welcomed me into your homes even when I was clueless.
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Dandelion1
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Sun, Feb 12 2012, 8:58 pm
I think the main lesson is to serve individually to all plates, and once all have had, maybe put out the rest in center of table for anyone who wants seconds. I would certainly be upset that dh did not get!
We used to have a guest (married man!) who would get ahold of the cholent bowl first and proceed to take the entire cut of meat for himself! You better believe we quickly learned to guard the cholent bowl and make sure others got it first! But to call someone's Rebbe to say that he took too much chicken, IMHO is going overboard.
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amother
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Sun, Feb 12 2012, 9:12 pm
I also grew up very well-off.
My parents taught us manners, and emphasised them especially when we were invited to other people's homes.
Even as young children, we knew never to show up somewhere (say to a Shabbos sleep-over with a friend) empty handed. Ever.
My parents taught us that many people did not have as much as we did and to be sensitive to that when we were invited over. Never ask questions that might make the host family feel uncomfortable or embarrassed, such as "Why does your sister sleep in your room?" or "Why does your mother have to take the bus? Is the car broken?".
They also made sure we volunteered at the local Jewish agency, packing food packages for people who relied on them. We helped pack them and deliver them to people, sometimes just leaving it by the door and ringing the bell. So we also understood the importance of preserving people's privacy and dignity.
We also grew up with parents who ejoyed their wealth, and did not feel embarrassed of it. But at the same time were not ostentatious and were very generous with other people.
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amother
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Sun, Feb 12 2012, 9:15 pm
| amother wrote: | I was going to post this under my screenname, but chickened out.
Just to give you the yeshiva guy's side of the story. I grew up in a very well-to-do family. In our house, I honestly had no idea that meat was more expensive than chicken (we had it all the time) or that potatoes were cheaper. My mother always made a TON of food, and we ate a LOT. (I was slightly overweight, but only slightly.) I had no problem polishing off two or three pieces of chicken, several pieces of kugel, and samples of the other side dishes in one Shabbos meal. I never had any idea that this was not normal. My brothers ate much more than I did, especially as teenagers.
When I went to Israel for seminary, I honestly had no idea what these people's finances were like. The idea of "poor" was not part of my vocabulary, except perhaps in stories. What's funny is that I had friends in high school that now, thinking back, I realize were definitely not well off at all, but then I didn't differentiate. My parents did not spoil me (except maybe in terms of food), so I never really had more clothes, gadgets, whatever than they did. I was the youngest in my family of three, so I never really thought about what it would be like to be exhausted running around after little kids every day.
Now, as a kollel wife living on a budget (not a monthly handout), I feel horrible when I think about how I acted. Honestly, I don't remember much. I do know that I did not understand how much help it was to just take the kids out for a little bit, or at least to entertain them for a little bit. I also know that at some people's houses, I remember feeling desperately hungry, but there just wasn't enough food to go around. (Yes, I was dense. I really just figured it meant that the mother of the family hadn't remembered to cook enough, or had estimated wrong somehow.)
Reading through your story, I completely could have seen myself acting like that. Note that it doesn't seem like he took the chicken all at once at the beginning of the meal. He probably politely took a piece or two, ate them, and then saw that everyone at the table seemed to be finishing up, so he figured it was fine to take the rest. He was in no way thinking of your finances. He might even have left the breast until last and taken it thinkiing he was going to eat the whole thing, but then...realized that everyone else was already done and it would look weird to keep on eating. I've done that before.
Once he lives it himself (if he ever does), he'll understand. Until then, I don't know if he can. Or maybe he could, if you told him? I don't know. I know that certainly nobody ever told me. I surely never knew that salmon was so expensive, and I know people now who don't have to worry about money and eat it like it's potatoes! Now, obviously we stretchthe chicken as much as possible. I definitely feel badly when food is thrown out when it doesn't have to be, but I try to ignore it, especially when it's due to guests.
In a novel I read as a kid (I think it was "A Tree Grows in Brooklyn"?), coffee is rationed and eachp erson in the family can only h ave a given amount. But one daughter doesn't like the taste of coffee, just the smell of it and the feel of it in her hands. Against everyone else's advice, her mother still gives her her share of the coffee each morning, even though it gets spilled down the drain, because it's her cup and she does gain some pleasure from it. After all, she's not taking away more pleasure from anyone else than if she would actually drink it!
That's my ramble about this thread. I know how the guy seems, and yes maybe he should be educated. But I don't know if it's a lack of middos as much as a lack of knowledge. Maybe the lack of knowledge affects his middos; I don't know. I do know that there's hope. I would be a much better guest if I were back in seminary today. Thank you for those of you who welcomed me into your homes even when I was clueless. |
Thanks for this post. I could have written some of this and was thinking about this before I read your post.
And I was not from a wealthy family at all. But there was always plenty of food to go around and I never realized the cost ...
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ElTam
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Sun, Feb 12 2012, 10:31 pm
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OP, your husband should have a refuah shleima. I'm sorry that the denseness of this person caused you suffering.
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