Tznius urban legends heard over the years

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Forum -> Parenting our children -> School age children

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shlomitsmum

Thu, Jun 07 2012, 1:48 pm

So I had a Tznius discussion with my teen inspired by the other thread. She told me she has heard many counsellors and a teachers in elementary shock

over the years saying crazy things like the letter in the other thread here is the Tznius urban legends we remembered.

share your own urban legend.

Revital abraham who died of machla because of vanity (that is what my child thought was the moral of the story)
http://chinuchathome.info/inde......html

Another one is a woman who was legless in olam haba because she did not cover her legs .

Share your own .....It might save us future shock so we can look sigh and say "yeah , I herad this eons ago ...

bigsis144

Thu, Jun 07 2012, 1:59 pm

Yup, I heard both of those, plus the "dress your daughter in burning clothing" one from shawl-wearing pamphlet-distributing ladies in Me'ah She'arim. My seminary uniform was a long pleated skirt, button-down collared blouse and stockings -- what else do they want from me?!

I work for a frum performing arts program, and every so often, we get scripts from people asking us to produce their work as a film or play. One person wrote a complete TWO-HOUR SCREENPLAY based on the Revital Avraham story. I was HORRIFIED. I can't imagine going to what I'd hope would be an evening of inspiration and entertainment and getting THAT. *shudder*

Yocheved84

Thu, Jun 07 2012, 1:59 pm

Don't have any, but this is a fantastic thread idea!

sarahd

Thu, Jun 07 2012, 2:28 pm

The only story I ever heard was the one about the girl pinning her skirt to her legs when she was going to be dragged through the street, and that was part of a bigger story that wasn't even about tznius.

bigsis144

Thu, Jun 07 2012, 2:37 pm

And the story of the girl who pinned her skirt to her legs has multiple versions from around the world -- the European version with a poritz (because Heaven forbid we tell our Ashkenazy Bais Yaakov girls a story about a Sefardic tzadeket! Rolling Eyes

), and the Moroccan version with the martyr Solika Hajuval/Hachouel from Tangier. At least with the Solika story, I know people who've davened at her kever in Fez.

shnitzel

Thu, Jun 07 2012, 2:43 pm

The version I heard many times was that it was Bais Yaakov girls during the Holocaust pinned their skirts to their legs.

bigsis144

Thu, Jun 07 2012, 2:47 pm

Oh, the post above reminds me -- wasn't the story of the 93 Bais Yaakov girls who committed suicide rather than be raped by Nazis proven to be a hoax?

Seriously, as cynical as I'm coming off, it's because this makes me SO SO SO upset. I believe in the values of tznius and am proud to be frum, but when deception and stupidity worm their way into our chinuch under false pretenses, it makes my blood boil.

perquacky

Thu, Jun 07 2012, 2:52 pm

sarahd wrote:

That story is from "Shalosh Matanot" by Y. L. Peretz, a very popular story to read in Ivrit class back when I was in school.

shlomitsmum

Thu, Jun 07 2012, 3:04 pm

sarahd wrote:

That was solika zL from Morroco , she refused to marry the local prince and convert to islam so they killed her. she did not want the creeps to see her legs as she was dragged hence the tznius lesson "shudder".

I thought the dying al kiddush hashem was the point until ..I heard the pins part "shiver"... Very Happy

Fox

Thu, Jun 07 2012, 3:11 pm

Wasn't there also one about a woman whose hair turned into worms (while the rest of her body remained intact) after her death because she hadn't covered her hair properly during her life?

I took a course in college that was titled something like, "The Rhetoric of Urban Legends," and it was a wonderful course, though I shudder to think whether that was really a good use of my parents' money.

Anyway, one of the things we discussed was the role of urban legends in a society. If I recall, one of the explanations is that they serve a dual purpose: they reinforce basic "lessons" that a particular culture wants to impress upon young people (e.g., "dress b'tznius" or "don't park in secluded areas with your boyfriend" or "be sure to lock the doors when you're home alone") and at the same time, they contain elements of horror that would elicit adult disapproval -- thus providing a way for adolescents to rebel and differentiate themselves.

So in a sense, such stories really are a part of chinuch -- but our disapproval of them is part and parcel of their appeal to their actual audience. They are designed to be passed along secretly with wide eyes and declarations of complete truthfulness . . . and subsequently dismissed as the listener passes out of adolescence.

Urban legends are also characterized by the fact that they address two notable characteristics of adolescents: their tendency to see things in black-and-white, and their underdeveloped neurological ability to anticipate negative consequences (or lack of a "fear lobe"). Nobody in an urban legend ever has something just a little bit bad happen, and the protagonists in the more elaborate urban legends often display levels of common sense generally associated with vegetables.

Interestingly, when adults react to urban legends with disgust and/or disdain, we're following the script to the letter! We're supposed to find the stories ridiculous, inappropriate, or distasteful, and when adults pass along the legends, the stories lose credibility within their intended audience.

So perhaps, if we want to stop the circulation of these tales, we should print them all up and hand them out at school. Based on how urban legends behave in other cultures, we'd probably kill them off within a few years! Not as fast as butchery committed by the recently-released madman with the claw for hand, but fast enough for most of us!

bigsis144

Thu, Jun 07 2012, 3:23 pm

Fox, but your serial-killer horror stories are spread by teenagers around campfires -- these tznius urban legends are being taught as gospel truth by serious mechanchos in positions of authority.

sequoia

Thu, Jun 07 2012, 3:38 pm

Fox, I took a class on Folk Tales, Fairy Tales, and Children's Literature, and one of our assignments was to write about an urban legend that we personally had heard. I wrote about the "which tire" professor story and concluded that "like many folktales and urban legends, this one promotes a certain virtue while simultaneously reinforcing an ingrained, somewhat illogical belief or idea."

So okay. This type of thing has a long, illustrious history. I've recently gotten into Russian "strashilki" -- scary stories, often of a Gypsy origin, about what happens to girls who disobey their grandmas. (Hint -- there's usually a self-propelling coffin on wheels involved. Or sometimes dead mothers come out of pianos. Good times).

But no way should this be coming from parents or teachers! Don't you think that's relevant?

Fox

Thu, Jun 07 2012, 4:02 pm

bigsis144 wrote:

Fox, but your serial-killer horror stories are spread by teenagers around campfires -- these tznius urban legends are being taught as gospel truth by serious mechanchos in positions of authority.

sequoia wrote:

But no way should this be coming from parents or teachers! Don't you think that's relevant?

Sorry! I was being facetious -- I don't really believe we should be handing out pamphlets!

My point was that, at least according to some of the research discussed in a course I took a million years ago, these stories actually lose power and credibility when they are presented by adults.

In other words, if your mom tells you a story about a girl who didn't lock the door and was subsequently murdered by an escaped convict, she's just nagging. But if your friends tell you at 2 a.m. when you're supposed to be asleep -- well, you may not literally "believe" the story, but it has more impact.

However, I want to hear more about these "strashilki" -- how can these tepid tznius stories possibly compete with flying coffins and dead mothers in pianos!?

sequoia

Thu, Jun 07 2012, 5:08 pm

Fox wrote:

However, I want to hear more about these "strashilki" -- how can these tepid tznius stories possibly compete with flying coffins and dead mothers in pianos!?

You want me to translate a few and PM you? Smile

Fox

Thu, Jun 07 2012, 5:36 pm

sequoia wrote:

Fox wrote:

However, I want to hear more about these "strashilki" -- how can these tepid tznius stories possibly compete with flying coffins and dead mothers in pianos!?

You want me to translate a few and PM you? Smile

Well, it's tempting -- I mean, who could resist flying coffins and dead mothers in pianos? But I'm still coming to terms with Sasha walking along the highway, and of course, I have to compare myself to a capybara once a week or so.

However, I did find this link -- almost literally the only English-language reference:

www.contimporary.org

Clearly, we soft-underbellied English-speakers are meant to stay away!

However, I did find a ditty at the above-referenced web site that I kind of liked:

Quote:

The Young Pioneer was fishing for trout,
A huge crocodile slowly crawled out.
“Lenin is Truth!” was the boy's brave reply,
The reptile now sports a little red tie.

So in addition to not parking in remote locations with one's boyfriend; locking the doors when one is home alone; and dressing b'tznius, we can add:

"Marxist/Leninist doctrine cannot overcome natural forces."

I hadn't specifically thought to communicate that to my DCs, but one can't be too careful!

LOL

sequoia

Thu, Jun 07 2012, 5:46 pm

Those translations are pretty good.

Strashilki come in two flavors, though -- sadistic poems and more lyrical stories which feature a lot of repetition. "On the first night she disobeyed her grandma and nothing happened, on the second night she disobeyed her grandma and nothing happened, on the third night the phone rang and a voice said, 'Little girl, little girl, the coffin on wheels is in your town... on your street... in your building... in the elevator... knocking on the door... etc etc."

They have different functions -- the rhymes are purely for a sadistic laugh and everyone over the age of 7 knows them all by heart. The stories are more for late-night ghost tales telling. People practice their story-telling skills to make it more dramatic. This is what medium-age children do in camp or during sleep-overs.

Apple pie

Fri, Jun 08 2012, 11:56 am

Quote:

My point was that, at least according to some of the research discussed in a course I took a million years ago, these stories actually lose power and credibility when they are presented by adults.

Except that in our societies, kids are taught that what comes from rabbis/teachers is holy and not to be disputed....

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