Double standard? (re: ripping out sheitel hairs)

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Forum -> Inquiries & Offers -> Israel related Inquiries & Aliyah Questions

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amother

Thu, Sep 06 2012, 8:24 am

I am the OP from the other thread about pulling out my sheital hair. Why was I so bashed for wanting to keep my things nice while doing chessed when here [on the thread where someone wanted to borrow an apartment in Israel for a few weeks] everyone also has the same expectations?

Why the double standard?

Shouldn't likewise everyone here be more rewarded for the harder mitzvah? Shouldn't it also build character in apartment dwellers to have their places trashed?

[split into its own thread by mod.]

shalhevet

Thu, Sep 06 2012, 8:51 am

amother wrote:

I am the OP from the other thread about pulling out my sheital hair. Why was I so bashed for wanting to keep my things nice while doing chessed when here everyone also has the same expectations?

Why the double standard?

Shouldn't likewise everyone here be more rewarded for the harder mitzvah? Shouldn't it also build character in apartment dwellers to have their places trashed?

Really?

You really think there is a comparison? Your CAR was left unpristine (is that a word? Wink

) and not up to the standard of having a $200 clean. You had to pick up a few crumbs. (I'm not judging you and I didn't answer there because I don't have an answer and I don't know what I would do in your situation). Also, bli ayin hara, someone who has $200 to have their car professionally cleaned probably has another $200. And it was all under your supervision. You didn't lend the lady your car for a month.

Here we are talking about trusting absolute strangers with your home and pretty much all your earthly possessions. What if their children break a window or an expensive piece of equipment? What if the people are irresponsible and go out and leave the door unlocked and thieves come in. What if they go through private drawers? What if the entire story is, as one person rightly (although I think it is unlikely) suggested, a scam to find someone who is going away? And most people I know in Israel cannot afford $200 to clean up when they come home. Not even the first time. Actually they are looking for additional sources of income to make ends meet. To put bread and chicken on the table. Not steaks and (kosher) caviare.

MaBelleVie

Thu, Sep 06 2012, 8:56 am

amother wrote:

Um, you are actively seeking out a chesed opportunity. No one here is. You seem to want to continue doing chesed. So people took that into account when responding.

And you really equate giving someone a ride with loaning an apt for a month???

Thu, Sep 06 2012, 9:10 am

I didn't see this apartment thread, but there have been other borrowing-apartment threads in the past, and it seems that there are some (rude, selfish) people who are simply inconsiderate of other people's belongings.

No one should make a mess in someone else's car, especially when asked not to. No one should leave another person's home in worse condition than it was at the beginning.

Being financially comfortable enough to afford professional detailing doesn't make someone less worthy of basic considerate behavior.

amother

Thu, Sep 06 2012, 9:19 am

MaBelleVie wrote:

amother wrote:

No I don't equate giving someone a ride with loaning an apartment for a month. That is patently absurd.

I did not seek out the chessed opportunity. I am continually asked and have been doing this for years. A frum female driver is not so readily available.

amother

Thu, Sep 06 2012, 9:33 am

shalhevet wrote:

amother wrote:

Really?

You really think there is a comparison? Your CAR was left unpristine (is that a word? Wink

No, I did not lend the lady the car for a month. That actually would have been easier instead I have been available to transport various ladies to various locations often at inconvenient times for sometimes rude and inconsiderate people for years.

I cannot supervise what goes on in the back of my car while I am driving.

BTW, I did host an entire family for sukkos. I asked the girl who was seven at the time to remove her shoes off my beige suede couch. Her mother defiantly put her own feet up on the other end of the couch. I guess I also deserve this.

I just don't understand why universally people do not deserve respect. Is it sort of like qualifying for food stamps? There is an income eligibility level?

amother

Thu, Sep 06 2012, 9:35 am

What Shalhevet said.

Re: your perception of bashing, I don't think you were bashed. You asked for responses, people gave them. There were a variety of opinions.

Most people who do chesed realize very quickly that it involves more hassle than they originally bargained for. People generally don't act the way we think they should, for all sorts of reasons. And that's part of life, so you just have to figure out how to deal with it (I.e. various suggestions that were given), or decide that certain chasadim are not for you. People were trying to help you realize that. If you expect perfection you are going to be constantly disappointed.

I think part of why people maybe didn't say what you wanted to hear was because your attitude toward what the lady did seemed like an overreaction. What you do for her is nice, but wasn't this huge difficult mitzvah. You take her shopping. You like to shop. So the nisayon for you is not the taking her, and it's not the giving her money, it's when she messes up your car. There are a lot of ways to be dan l'kaf zchus here, and even if you don't want to be dan l'kaf zchus, you could just accept that this is the way she is, and then decide that either you can't take her anymore, or if you do, you'll do certain things, like have her ride up front with you so she can't slip food to the baby! But you're busy getting so angry about this lady, and honestly it seems like wasted energy.

amother

Thu, Sep 06 2012, 9:37 am

Maybe someone could explain to me why otherwise clean people do not have the same respect for cars.

The people whose cars look like a trash dump live in spotless houses.

Inspired

Thu, Sep 06 2012, 9:41 am

Amother, your thread is not the same as what is going on in this thread. You are complaining (rightfully or not, doesn't matter) having done an acknowledged chesed for someone. We are saying that this isn't a chessed that should be being requested. Anyway on your thread I saw maybe 5 posters criticizing you and over double that agreeing with you or giving you advice and treating your complaints as valid. Were it the other way around you might have a point.

A valid comparison would be if someone started a thread saying "my friend doesn't have money to buy clothes for her kids and doesn't have transportation to stores, is there anyone on imamother or who knows someone who could drive my friend around to stores and then pay for her shopping expeditions twice a month" Try that and see what type of responses you get.
You chose to do this chessed, which, yes, many of the people who think the idea of requesting an apartment for a month would think a request of what you did equally ridiculous (here, here) but you already did it, so that really isn't the discussion. You are comparing apples and airplanes. Seriously, have you really thought this through?

amother

Thu, Sep 06 2012, 9:42 am

Quote:

I just don't understand why universally people do not deserve respect. Is it sort of like qualifying for food stamps? There is an income eligibility level?

What, you think people are saying that because you have money you don't deserve respect? Because some people told you maybe the lady in the car wasn't deliberately defying your no-food rule? And because some random family had a mom who put her feet on the couch after you told her daughter not to? Come on. Life, for people at all income levels, is a series of annoying interactions with people who do rude things! People are telling you it's NORMAL, IT'S PART OF LIFE. I don't understand why you think there's a double standard here.

mummiedearest

Thu, Sep 06 2012, 9:48 am

op, I didn't get the impression you were being bashed (for the most part. I'm not sure I read the whole thread).

I think people were trying to help you relax about what already happened. I agree, you were not respected, and you need to tell the woman that this is unacceptable. and I agree that you have the right to be upset. I think people are just trying to say that what's done is done, and you can't undo any of it by being angry. they also feel it might be easier to be calm about it if you make excuses for this woman's behavior. many people will rationalize for others. this obviously doesn't work for you, so don't take their advice. they don't mean that the woman had the right to ruin your dd's sketches or to mess up your car. she didn't.

amother

Thu, Sep 06 2012, 10:04 am

Inspired wrote:

OP: LOL

I was not looking at the request part.

I was just looking at the respect part and the part where they say beneficiaries are not careful with others things.

You do realize all the likes gives the impression of being bashed. The bashers had support. Anyway thanks for jollying me up.

Inspired

Thu, Sep 06 2012, 10:12 am

And don't forget on the apartment thread many of the reposnders were only responding because of OP's follow up post accsuing us of not doing chessed. So, add that to the scenario that after noone gives offers of chaffeured shopping trips that are all expense paid (did she at least pay for her own cookies?) for your friend you then start telling everyone off that all you are asking for is "a little loving kindness" and how no one does chessed anymore and see where that gets you.

egam

Thu, Sep 06 2012, 10:12 am

shalhevet wrote:

Really?

You really think there is a comparison? Your CAR was left unpristine (is that a word? Wink

Really? So if OP has $200 to clean her car people can just trash it and not only she can't vent about it but should be thankful for it? We've been in the same situation as OP. My DH has the same rule - no food in the car and people just don't care. Or they would say "Oh, it's only a lollypop". Yes the lollypop that ends up stuck to the seat. It's not so much about the money, it's about respecting somebody else's rules in their car or home.
And can we please stop counting somebody else's money and look at our own tables?

PS: we clean our own car and I not at all rich.

amother

Thu, Sep 06 2012, 10:18 am

amother wrote:

I agree with most of what you said.

I don't particularly like shopping. I certainly don't care to do it in stores which have nothing I need. You do realize like everyone else my time can be spent more productively. These rides are an extreme time drain. Try giving up this much time several times a week.

It is not just one lady once. It is an ongoing problem that has been building for years. That is the just the straw.

Just curious, what did you think I wanted to hear? At the beginning of the thread I was not where I am at not in terms of chessed and tziduckah.

amother

Thu, Sep 06 2012, 10:23 am

Inspired wrote:

I wish there was a big thank you and a hug button. LOL about the cookies part.

Now that really is funny!!!

Fox

Thu, Sep 06 2012, 10:27 am

Yes, there is a double-standard.

Unfortunately, there are a handful of posters who live in EY who have assimilated the "fear of freiing" culture in Israel. They tend to see even relatively pareve -- if perhaps unrealistic -- requests in terms of people wanting to take advantage. They are convinced that everyone is constantly trying to avoid carrying his/her fair share of the world's burdens. The OP asked a simple question that could have been answered easily without all the insult-slinging; she wasn't asking anyone to give up her own apartment. However, the tone of the thread was set by a few posters who used it as an opportunity to vent about all those "other people" who might be getting something for nothing.

In short, questions about traveling to EY open up a whole can of cultural and emotional issues that tend to obscure both the questions and the answers.

The issue of the messed-up car raises an entirely different issue about the inherent nature of chessed.

Acts of chesed tend to be distributed across a spectrum: at one end, you might pick up an item at the store for a neighbor or give a ride to someone whose car is being repaired. These are easy, no-brainer acts of chessed. The recipient of the chesed either waits to be asked or asks for a favor in an appropriate manner; behaves considerately; expresses gratitude; and reciprocates when the occasion arises.

However, further along the spectrum are the acts of chesed performed for people who simply couldn't manage their day-to-day lives otherwise. The recipients of this chesed are often incapacitated to some degree, whether mentally, emotionally, behaviorally, etc. For whatever reason, their dependence on others extends to an inability to perform the "dance" between giver and recipient.

Let me add, BTW, that all of us will fall into "dysfunctional" end of the spectrum at various points in our lives. Preparing a body for burial is called a "chesed shel emes" because the recipient is completely dependent on the chesed of others and has no way to reciprocate.

That said, people who lean toward the "dysfunctional" end of the spectrum are notoriously difficult to help. Frequently, the problems that make them in need of chesed are the problems that make that chesed so frustrating. The socially inappropriate guest . . . the unemployed guy who won't take a job offer . . . the overwhelmed mother who can't organize herself enough to be at home for a chesed girl . . .

It sounded to me like the recipient who messed up the car fell somewhere on the "dysfunctional" end of the spectrum. Her need for chesed is apparently long-term, and she seems unable to process information and requests in a normal, responsible way. It's probably no coincidence that she has long-term chesed needs!

All that said, each of us has to decide the types of chesed we're able perform easily; which ones stretch us a bit; and which ones are completely outside of our abilities. Most of us do certain types of chesed without even considering it "chesed." Other things require us to push ourselves a little. And certain things just may be too far outside our comfort zones.

Dealing with chronically needy and/or socially dysfunctional people is a huge undertaking, and I commend the OP for even making the effort. Too many of us (including me!) happily delegate these folks to social service agencies and chesed organizations. Ultimately, though, you have to acknowledge to yourself that this woman is not like a neighbor whose car is in the shop; her ability to interact responsibly with others is somehow damaged, and she does not necessarily understand conventional courtesy.

Once you acknowledge her limitations, you can be honest with yourself about what tasks you're willing to undertake. If having your car messed up is too frustrating, simply decline to give her rides. Do something else for her and let someone with an already-trashed car (Yoo hoo! That'd be me!) transport her.

It would be great if every chesed recipient was socially savvy and considerate. But if that were the case, there would be far fewer opportunities to do chesed.

amother

Thu, Sep 06 2012, 10:28 am

mummiedearest wrote:

I do now appreciate those trying to make me feel better. Thanks for the explanation.

I think I really needed the couple of LOLs provided by Inspired and I will go back and re- read.

Inspired

Thu, Sep 06 2012, 10:37 am

Fox, really now? I think you missed the Op of that thread's response which was what I and others were responding based on. Not her OP, which I would have just ignored as no, I don't know of any free apartments in any of those locations for weeks at a time for strangers. The tone of the thread for me was very much set by the Op's response.

Liba

Thu, Sep 06 2012, 10:38 am

Every time I read your posts I wonder, why does anyone need to go shopping for clothing several times a week? Is this also grocery shopping, or are they really shopping for clothing that often?

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