Double standard? (re: ripping out sheitel hairs)

Inspired

Thu, Sep 06 2012, 10:40 am

amother wrote:

mummiedearest wrote:

op, I didn't get the impression you were being bashed (for the most part. I'm not sure I read the whole thread).

I think people were trying to help you relax about what already happened. I agree, you were not respected, and you need to tell the woman that this is unacceptable. and I agree that you have the right to be upset. I think people are just trying to say that what's done is done, and you can't undo any of it by being angry. they also feel it might be easier to be calm about it if you make excuses for this woman's behavior. many people will rationalize for others. this obviously doesn't work for you, so don't take their advice. they don't mean that the woman had the right to ruin your dd's sketches or to mess up your car. she didn't.

I do now appreciate those trying to make me feel better. Thanks for the explanation.

I think I really needed the couple of LOLs provided by Inspired and I will go back and re- read.

Glad I could be of help. Do I get chessed points or am I a frier for giving away my amusing posts for free?

amother

Thu, Sep 06 2012, 10:50 am

Fox wrote:

Yes, there is a double-standard.

Unfortunately, there are a handful of posters who live in EY who have assimilated the "fear of freiing" culture in Israel. They tend to see even relatively pareve -- if perhaps unrealistic -- requests in terms of people wanting to take advantage. They are convinced that everyone is constantly trying to avoid carrying his/her fair share of the world's burdens. The OP asked a simple question that could have been answered easily without all the insult-slinging; she wasn't asking anyone to give up her own apartment. However, the tone of the thread was set by a few posters who used it as an opportunity to vent about all those "other people" who might be getting something for nothing.

In short, questions about traveling to EY open up a whole can of cultural and emotional issues that tend to obscure both the questions and the answers.

The issue of the messed-up car raises an entirely different issue about the inherent nature of chessed.

Acts of chesed tend to be distributed across a spectrum: at one end, you might pick up an item at the store for a neighbor or give a ride to someone whose car is being repaired. These are easy, no-brainer acts of chessed. The recipient of the chesed either waits to be asked or asks for a favor in an appropriate manner; behaves considerately; expresses gratitude; and reciprocates when the occasion arises.

However, further along the spectrum are the acts of chesed performed for people who simply couldn't manage their day-to-day lives otherwise. The recipients of this chesed are often incapacitated to some degree, whether mentally, emotionally, behaviorally, etc. For whatever reason, their dependence on others extends to an inability to perform the "dance" between giver and recipient.

Let me add, BTW, that all of us will fall into "dysfunctional" end of the spectrum at various points in our lives. Preparing a body for burial is called a "chesed shel emes" because the recipient is completely dependent on the chesed of others and has no way to reciprocate.

That said, people who lean toward the "dysfunctional" end of the spectrum are notoriously difficult to help. Frequently, the problems that make them in need of chesed are the problems that make that chesed so frustrating. The socially inappropriate guest . . . the unemployed guy who won't take a job offer . . . the overwhelmed mother who can't organize herself enough to be at home for a chesed girl . . .

It sounded to me like the recipient who messed up the car fell somewhere on the "dysfunctional" end of the spectrum. Her need for chesed is apparently long-term, and she seems unable to process information and requests in a normal, responsible way. It's probably no coincidence that she has long-term chesed needs!

All that said, each of us has to decide the types of chesed we're able perform easily; which ones stretch us a bit; and which ones are completely outside of our abilities. Most of us do certain types of chesed without even considering it "chesed." Other things require us to push ourselves a little. And certain things just may be too far outside our comfort zones.

Dealing with chronically needy and/or socially dysfunctional people is a huge undertaking, and I commend the OP for even making the effort. Too many of us (including me!) happily delegate these folks to social service agencies and chesed organizations. Ultimately, though, you have to acknowledge to yourself that this woman is not like a neighbor whose car is in the shop; her ability to interact responsibly with others is somehow damaged, and she does not necessarily understand conventional courtesy.

Once you acknowledge her limitations, you can be honest with yourself about what tasks you're willing to undertake. If having your car messed up is too frustrating, simply decline to give her rides. Do something else for her and let someone with an already-trashed car (Yoo hoo! That'd be me!) transport her.

It would be great if every chesed recipient was socially savvy and considerate. But if that were the case, there would be far fewer opportunities to do chesed.

Great post Fox; but most of these women are not dysfunctional which is why it is so very frustrating. They are ballabusters for the most part and run their lives and homes admirably. I did say the women is refined. Most of these women are refined and dignified. If not for the woman who stained my seat, her husband could not be learning full time. I hear he is truley gifted. She has a large family with young children. She is smart and a real treasure. There is obviously a cultural gasp here which I cannot bridge. I still don't get it.

They don't give her husband enough of a stipend that she could splurge on her kids despite the fact he is brilliant and dedicated. I also hear he is a very nice man.

The wife was managing before my help. I think family was helping; but she comes from a family of all learners so resources get stretched thin.

I was very hurt by the women with the cookies because she would not do such a thing in my home or her home.

The woman who put her feet on my couch defiantly had issues and I was not hurt.

I wish there was a resolution for this; but I have come to believe none exist.

Fox

Thu, Sep 06 2012, 11:03 am

Inspired wrote:

Fox, really now? I think you missed the Op of that thread's response which was what I and others were responding based on. Not her OP, which I would have just ignored as no, I don't know of any free apartments in any of those locations for weeks at a time for strangers. The tone of the thread for me was very much set by the Op's response.

Yes, really now!

Here are responses to the OP's initial inquiry -- before her more strident post:

Quote:

Why is this a chesed and a mitzvea?

They presumably have a perfectly acceptable roof over their heads in their home town, and are choosing to travel for their own pleasure. Correct m if I'm mistaken. They also have relatives in Bnei Brak.

I have been seeing so often lately that Kollel couples request discounts on things that are by no means necessities. If they can't afford to rent an apartment, they don't have to go! Why should someone offer them a valuable apartment that can be rented to someone else for more money, just because they've made the choice to *learn*?

DH and I earn very good salaries, B"H, and we don't travel to Israel for succos (or at any other time, for that matter), because the flights and accommodations are too expensive.

Maybe I should ask for a Chesed for a-family-working-their-fingers-to-the-bone-to-pay-full-tuition?

Quote:

I was too "shy" to write what amother did, but I agree with her 100%

Quote:

There ain't no such thing any more. If they have family, maybe they should offer them a place to stay, or find it for them. Most people rely on the income so they go to their parents for yom tov to make a few dollars off their apartments. No one is looking to give anything to anyone for nothing, the owners of the apartments are themselves struggling young people. I agree with the previous poster, if you don't have money to travel, including where to stay, then just stay at home. It's different if traveling chas vesholom for a medical reason, where there are bikur cholim apartments set up. The chesed/hachnosas orchim apartments in Brooklyn today also charge a hefty fee for those using it. They expect a donation that is the equivalent of a hotel room stay, and the chesed is that they have a place for you! These are also very run down and dirty, and you still have to pay for it. There is nothing in this world that is truly free.

Quote:

I was too shy too. That's why I posted anonymously.

But I did think it needed to be said.

Having thought a little more about it, I agree that it's different if they are there to visit an elderly relative or some such, but OP didn't indicate that in her post.

The implication was that by virtue of the fact that they are in kollel alone, they are entitled to special consideration, even for luxuries. I vehemently disagree with this.

Quote:

I so agree with you also. Why should luxuries be expected?

I cannot imagine anyone thinking these comments were not insulting and incendiary. The OP wasn't asking, "Do you morally approve of kollel couples traveling to EY and looking for low-cost arrangements?" She was simply asking for leads on such an arrangement. Perfectly appropriate to explain why such accommodations might be hard to find, which several posters did. Perfectly appropriate to offer help finding the best deal possible, which another poster did.

Going off on a rant about luxuries and kollel? Not only inappropriate, but a number of posts made their authors sound bitter, jealous, and downright narcissistic.

ally

Thu, Sep 06 2012, 11:13 am

Fox wrote:

Half the posters responding to that thread - who also found the request absurd - were not Israeli.
A while ago, there was a thread by a poster asking to be hosted for meals (and if possible for sleeping) on Shabbos at the tail end of their camping trip. This was in the US, it was for ONE shabbos, and she got quite a lot of nasty responses. But it must have just been those "fear of freing" Israelis, right?

Faigy86

Thu, Sep 06 2012, 11:19 am

Fox wrote:

Inspired wrote:

Yes, really now!

Here are responses to the OP's initial inquiry -- before her more strident post:

Quote:

I was too "shy" to write what amother did, but I agree with her 100%

Quote:

I so agree with you also. Why should luxuries be expected?

This is an example of the critical thinking skills that you were talking about (for all those who weren't sure about the definition) Smile

ally

Thu, Sep 06 2012, 11:27 am

Fox wrote:

Inspired wrote:

Yes, really now!

Here are responses to the OP's initial inquiry -- before her more strident post:

Quote:

I was too "shy" to write what amother did, but I agree with her 100%

Quote:

I so agree with you also. Why should luxuries be expected?

Could I point out that amother #1 who started the kollel rant clearly doesn't live in Israel. And the rest of the quoted posts -except for the one that just said "I agree" were by "amother" - not the known Israeli posters.
But feel free to continue slandering an entire subsection of this board which is made up of an incredibly wide range of women.

Fox

Thu, Sep 06 2012, 11:48 am

ally wrote:

I refuse to make any assumptions about people who post anonymously. In five years, I've posted anonymously about three times, always because I was revealing information about a family member or friend who had not given me permission to discuss an issue openly.

The fact that these posts were anonymous suggests to me that the posters realized they were not on solid footing but were unwilling to put even quasi-anonymous screen names behind their opinions.

ally wrote:

But feel free to continue slandering an entire subsection of this board which is made up of an incredibly wide range of women.

Actually, I didn't slander anyone. However, you could potentially make the case that I libeled "a handful of posters," which I believe is not synonymous with "an entire subsection of this board." But it's a somewhat circular argument: if you genuinely believe that the "fear of freiing" cultural construct is objectively factual, my comments would not be pejorative, let alone libelous.

ally

Thu, Sep 06 2012, 11:57 am

Fox wrote:

ally wrote:

But feel free to continue slandering an entire subsection of this board which is made up of an incredibly wide range of women.

I don't think your "fear of freiing" cultural construct is objectively factual.
And I don't see how you can use amother to support it. That was exactly my point.

Fox

Thu, Sep 06 2012, 12:03 pm

ally wrote:

Half the posters responding to that thread - who also found the request absurd - were not Israeli. A while ago, there was a thread by a poster asking to be hosted for meals (and if possible for sleeping) on Shabbos at the tail end of their camping trip. This was in the US, it was for ONE shabbos, and she got quite a lot of nasty responses. But it must have just been those "fear of freing" Israelis, right?

I have absolutely no idea what thread you're talking about, but we've had this discussion many, many times on imamother.

The thread that prompted this spinoff referred to practices in Israel.

If you are suggesting that there are no cultural differences between Israel and North America, I would beg to disagree. I have no quarrel with someone saying, "Right or wrong, this is how things are in EY." Or, for that matter, "Right or wrong, this is how things are done on the US East Coast."

I can assure you that in the US Midwest, the search for such accommodations would not be seen as improper. As some of the more circumspect imamothers pointed out, big houses and lots of land make for very different ideas and expectations. One might not be able to find such accommodations, but the request would not lead to "shock" on anyone's part.

So why be mean to someone who obviously comes from a different culture? Either educate the person or don't, but why digress into opinions on what constitutes a luxury, paying tuition, or kollel? It's interesting to debate the reasons and desirability of various cultural norms (and FS and I can always gobble up some bandwidth on various issues), but that wasn't the OP's original purpose.

ally

Thu, Sep 06 2012, 12:29 pm

Fox wrote:

ally wrote:

Half the posters responding to that thread - who also found the request absurd - were not Israeli. A while ago, there was a thread by a poster asking to be hosted for meals (and if possible for sleeping) on Shabbos at the tail end of their camping trip. This was in the US, it was for ONE shabbos, and she got quite a lot of nasty responses. But it must have just been those "fear of freing" Israelis, right?

We are talking about the same thread. Go back to it.
Discount the amother posts because you don't assume anything about amother said is valid (And if you don't know where amother is located, you can't really assume their negative response is because they have an Israel-induced "fear of freiing")
Then count how many people who thought the request was unreasonable are Israeli.
And how many are non-Israeli.

As an aside, if you posted here that you were going away for a month in the summer, and I asked if I could stay in your house since it was empty anyways - you would think that a polite, normal request?

Fox

Thu, Sep 06 2012, 12:36 pm

BetsyTacy wrote:

I am the American who agreed with the supposed "anti-Kollel rant." I wasn't agreeing to a rant--I was agreeing to the idea that working-very-hard-to-pay-full-tuition people often don't get to go to Israel either. And if they do go, they generally pay for their own airfare, and have a plan in place for housing. That is not being "anti-Kollel"-that is being a mature adult.

So where do you draw the line? Should someone traveling to EY refuse to share a taxi because, after all, their fellow travelers should have budgeted for their own transportation? Should someone book the first hotel they find rather than attempt to locate a less expensive hotel because, after all, if they can afford to travel, they should budget for the top-of-the-line accommodations. Should a visitor to EY avoid using the buses because, after all, he's taking up valuable space, and if he can afford the ticket to EY, he should be able to afford a taxi?

Why is it your business why the couple is traveling, etc.? Either you have information for them or you don't. If you don't have information or an apartment, then it's a moot point. If you do have information or an apartment, you can get the details and decide how to proceed.

I'll grant that some situations are inherently more sympathetic than others. Visiting a dying grandmother might elicit a different reaction than, "Oh, we just wanted a break." But the OP gave no details initially, and even if she had, individual circumstances make it almost impossible to make a cheshbon. Do we really want to start parsing whether someone is "deserving" of free or low-cost accommodations if he's visiting his dying grandmother but had attended yeshiva in EY for 3 years but visited her only twice, etc., etc.?

amother wrote:

??
She clearly doesn't live in Israel, because she says she and her husband don't TRAVEL TO ISRAEL.
Not to make assumptions or anything, but I'm pretty sure that means they don't live there......

Right, and we know that because . . . she said so! I'm actually presuming she doesn't live in EY, but it's completely irrelevant to my points, which are:

1. There are a handful (more than 2; less than 6) posters in EY who are consistently unhelpful in an insulting way when someone asks what they consider to be an inappropriate question;

2. The OP did not say anything in her first two posts that required more than a simply explanation of the options for travelers to EY; and

3. The pile-on started before the OP's more strident post regarding chesed.

Fox

Thu, Sep 06 2012, 12:49 pm

ally wrote:

As an aside, if you posted here that you were going away for a month in the summer, and I asked if I could stay in your house since it was empty anyways - you would think that a polite, normal request?

Yes, I would think it was completely normal. In fact, I would be thrilled, because it means my house wouldn't be standing unattended for a month.

I never go anywhere, but I've had people stay in my house for periods of a week (vacationing students or people who weren't able to clean for Pesach) to a month (a couple whose apartment rental fell through shortly before they moved) up to two years (a bochur). I've hosted tons of people for meals and Shabbosos simply because they got stuck at O'Hare.

I'm not crazy; I check people out and require some sort of verification through a rav, etc., that they are who they say they are.

Now, there is a difference between asking and receiving. Not everyone has the energy, let alone the space, to do this. Some people have antiques, seforim, or other possessions that they feel might be vulnerable to guests. Personally, I've never had any serious problems, but I can understand the sentiment. I have, in fact, turned down guests who seemed suspicious or who were unable to provide any reasonable references.

But, no, I think the request was pretty reasonable. Perhaps not realistic, but that's another story. Like Ruchel says, "everything is cultural." It may seem shocking to you, but I can assure you that not everything thinks the same way.