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achayl

Sat, Sep 29 2012, 11:15 pm

I thought that the Lifelines in the Mishpacha this week was very thought provoking.

I had my DH and teens read it to see what they thought, and what they would have done.

My heart would have said, 'no way' send the shtar mechilah back unsigned, but knowing that this is
what the family wanted I might have signed. What a dilemma?! I feel so bad, but also know
that this is only one side of the story.

What would you have done?

Rubber Ducky

Sat, Sep 29 2012, 11:37 pm

What a story... Sad

I read this aloud to DH at our Shabbos table today (we often share interesting articles and stories at the table). DH said "Take them to a beis din." I would have asked my Rav what to do because then at least by following a p'sak I wouldn't feel guilty afterwards.

groisamomma

Sat, Sep 29 2012, 11:39 pm

What's the article about?

mandksima

Sun, Sep 30 2012, 2:48 am

I believe mechilah can be given without being asked forgiveness, even if the other party doesn't feel remorse or think they did anything wrong at all. It is pride that stands in the way. I didn't go through what they did so I can't judge them or know what I would do in that exact situation but I still remember working very hard to forgive someone who really hurt me in seminary and tarnished my reputation (it is more than 20 years later,) who never felt sorry about it and still thinks I was in the wrong. I forgave and wish her well but still remember.

c.c.cookie

Sun, Sep 30 2012, 5:38 am

mandksima wrote:

This is true - but I don't think you can DEMAND it. If the person is still hurting, you can't demand mechila. You can - and should - apologize and try to make amends, and then ASK for mechilla.
I also found the story very thought provoking. I wonder what a rav would say. I'm not sure it's even the right thing to sign that shtar mechilla.

c.c.cookie

Sun, Sep 30 2012, 5:43 am

groisamomma wrote:

What's the article about?

About a boy whose kallah broke off the engagement a day before the wedding. The way they went about it was awful - they were the last ones to find out about it, and the kallah and her family refused to speak to the chosson and his family and explain. They also badmouthed the chosson's family and gave them a terrible reputation, with - based on the side we read - total lies. The erev YK the kallah's father's rav called and told them they really should sign a shtar mechila - they didn't even have the decency to ask for mechila themselves. Then there was a knock on the door, with a courrier who brought over a shtar mechila for them to sign. The story ends there - what would you do?

PinkFridge

Sun, Sep 30 2012, 8:25 am

Rubber Ducky wrote:

What a story... Sad

Yes!
Where were rabbanim in this story? Halachically, how can one protect oneself? I know there was a rosh yeshiva mentioned but that would have been one of my first calls. To my rav, the mechutan's rav.

Etonnemoi

Tue, Oct 02 2012, 10:57 pm

My family's gut reaction was it's 100% halachically non-required for them to sign it.

I'd have sat the courier down with an offer of a cup of coffee and some Yom Tov cake if he really refused to leave, then made myself comfortable and called my Rov to discuss. (Of course, in real life the Rav probably would not be available Erev Y"K, so I'd explain to the courier that I am unable to sign it until I speak to a key player in the matter, and he is free to leave, stick around a few days on my couch, or get a receipt from me stating that I am unable to sign the document until the matter is settled to my satisfaction. Just saying.)

Of course what my LOR would say remains to be seen, but I believe that there is absolutely zero obligation for anyone to have to forgive

1. someone who says "echteh v'ashuv" (which may seem to be applied in this case)
2. someone who has wronged them without remorse
3. Halacha provides for someone to request forgiveness THREE TIMES. This means that it is completely appropriate (if not expected) for the first two times to be refused!! It only says that refusing a third time is inappropriate (IF FORGIVENESS WAS REQUIRED IN THE FIRST PLACE - thus the LOR's ruling.)

I'd like to think that in a utopian world I'd send them a short, unthreatening letter explaining the above/LOR's ruling, finishing with a quiet statement that if they would like to jointly consult another Rabbi of our joint choosing on this topic, I would welcome their input. At this point, they can hardly muddy the choson's family more, so "I" might as well continue acting the way I know is appropriate and know that they're losers, spiritual and otherwise, and to cave into their bullying is both perpetuating their inappropriate behavior as well as collaborating on their abuse of halachah.

Just my six pennies...

MimiMommy

Tue, Oct 02 2012, 11:25 pm

This article was very thought provoking for me as well. My gut reaction was "of course don't forgive them! Let them feel sorry for what they did, what disgusting people". Then I figured, by not forgiving them they are only dragging the fight on longer, and won't get anywhere. By signing the shtar mechila, they can show who the better people are (it doesn't matter if the other party sees this or not; why do they need their approval?). Accepting the reality and moving on when nothing will change is the first step to healing.

joy613

Wed, Oct 03 2012, 12:48 am

I thought I remember learning that Mechila does not need to be given to someone that said motzi shem ra about you.
Can anyone confirm?

If so, than they have that to stand on, even though that will probably not help the situation practically.

sped

Wed, Oct 03 2012, 7:24 am

My reaction was as some of yours above. I found the whole story very moving. I can't imagine I would sign it, but I gues I would ask a rav what I am mechuyav to do. I am fairly sure that there is no chiyuv - and even less- to be mochel someone who shows no remorse.

ceo

Wed, Oct 03 2012, 8:18 am

I also found the story incredibly emotional. I don't think that if it were me, I would have been able to sign the shtar mechila without some sort of of closure from the other family. Certainl,y I wouldn't have signed it without speaking to my family Rov-- preferably a long, in depth discussion, with him getting info from the other family, which is not going to happen 90 minutes before yom kippor.

MimiMommy- of course you need to move on, but you also need to honestly not feel any bitterness towards a person in order to move on. Signing a shtar mechila is not neccessarily going to bring that closure.

forever21

Wed, Oct 03 2012, 12:14 pm

Can you sign knowing that you cannot forgive them? The only way I would sign is if the kallah had the decency to bring it over herself and give an explanation for the way she acted and allow the chosson to express his hurt and anger over the way she treated him and their family. Otherwise theres no closure.

ceo

Wed, Oct 03 2012, 12:53 pm

forever21 wrote:

Can you sign knowing that you cannot forgive them? .

that's a good question. I don't think you can do that....I know that in HaMapil, if you really don't forgive someone, when you come to the part "I forgive anyone who hurt me" -- there are shitos that say you should actually say "chutz m'ploni....." .

If you really feel hurt and actually do bear a grudge, then I'm not sure why signing an actual shtar woud help.

About 2 years ago, I asked a shaila to a Rav about forgiving someone who spoke negatively about me to my husband. it happened probably close to a decade ago,he actually encouraged my husband to divorce me! shock

The Rov I spoke to encouraged me to be mochel this person-- he told me that this person only heard one side of the story, etc, etc... , and as much as I tried, I still feel a tiny bit of resentment. BTW, we moved away from that city and haven't had contact with this person since then (2004). Well, a year ago I read in the Yated that this person was nifter in his late 40s from cancer.

Now, I certainly don't think that me not forgiving him caused his cancer,but sometimes I wonder if me not forgiving him FULLY is blocking him any way in shamayim.

ElTam

Wed, Oct 03 2012, 1:04 pm

I'd sign it right after they agreed to meet with my family and a rav of my choosing and discuss their behavior.

c.c.cookie

Wed, Oct 03 2012, 1:34 pm

I got a rav's opinion on this story - and he said that in his opinion it's ASSUR to be mochel these people until they come and properly ask for mechilla and try to make amends and rectify what they did to this family.

PinkFridge

Wed, Oct 03 2012, 2:15 pm

c.c. cookie, that's the most important thing, getting rabbanim involved.

rainbow dash

Wed, Oct 03 2012, 2:33 pm

I hope they tell us what happened cause I hate reading such a good story and then BAM no ending.

Rollerblades

Wed, Oct 03 2012, 4:40 pm

Just read the article. Like other posters I found it moving and upsetting.

As far as if they are obligated to sign it or if they should- I know of more than once such scenario (broken engagement- not a day before the wedding, but also involving shtar mechila) where the wronged side demanded reparations in return for their written forgiveness.

One dumped chosson I know asked for written proof that he was not at fault (for use in future shidduchim,) in addition to $50,000 for the shame and pain that he and his family went through. It may sound extreme to some here but I don't think he was wrong, and I don't think the family in this article would be remiss in withholding their signature until they received something for their troubles.

Im not even talking about money- even a written agreement that they were not at fault -to clear the boy and his family's name are fully within their rights to ask for.

nechami1

Wed, Oct 03 2012, 6:19 pm

very thought provoking but also very upsetting. In my opinion they should have asked it face to face- not on a handwritten note. But one cant know the consequences later on if they dont get forgiveness.

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