would you feel the same had dd murdered someone?

StrongIma

Fri, Nov 30 2012, 1:18 am

some of you stood up for supposed pregnant dd that in this case halacha should allow aborting a healthy fetus for the sake of dd's emotional well-being, that she shouldn't have to pay such a heavy price for a "moment of passion".

But aren't many criminal acts done in just such a moment of passion? what of the abusive dad who murders his wife and kids - should he also not have to suffer for this? what if your own dd had murdered someone in a "fit of passion" - should she likewise not suffer for her actions?

just how far do you take this line of thinking? a dd who is old enough to get pregnant should be old enough to have certain red-lines ingrained in her that this would never happen (short of rape - and even then I don't know if an abortion would be allowed - but at least you could explain it to any outsiders as necessary - come to think of it, wouldn't it have been better for that girl from CH had they made up this story and allowed her to remain at home for the duration?)

amother

Fri, Nov 30 2012, 1:26 am

I don't think abortion is the same as murder. I don't think the Torah view is that abortion is the same as murder.

I would view a teenage DD getting pregnant as a moment of stupidity rather than a moment of passion.

My teen DD doesn't have those red lines ingrained and it's not through my lack of trying. Not all DD's are created equal.

If my teen DD got pregnant I would seriously consider abortion. If she killed somebody I would say "I still love you but you have to pay the price for your crime."

Isramom8

Fri, Nov 30 2012, 2:12 am

I would not feel "the same" because it's not the same in halacha, but I still don't think that a developing human being should be aborted without very serious cause and only if there are really no other options.

One poster wrote, "If there is a baby - and not everyone believes there should be a baby..."
Guess what? There is a baby. He or she is just very young and vulnerable and still developing. You really have to kill the baby? Maybe so. But don't take that lightly.

Culturedpearls

Fri, Nov 30 2012, 2:37 am

As the saying goes "if you can't do the time, don't do the crime".
Every single child/teen should know there are consequences to their actions.
It is our responsibility as parents to ingrain it. Sure , some kids learn after 1 mistake others after 100. But they all learn if we let them. Let them learn on small things - forgot your lunch/you don't eat, didn't put on a sweater/freeze, didn't wake up on time/make your own way to school then you wont get to fool around/get pregnant.
No I would not permit an abortion under such circumstances. To me it's akin to murder.

Tablepoetry

Fri, Nov 30 2012, 3:47 am

Culturedpearls wrote:

No I would not permit an abortion under such circumstances. To me it's akin to murder.

Is it really legally your place to permit or to not permit? AFAIK, in many countries, a teen can have an abortion even if the parents don't permit.

I also think abortion should never ever be taken lightly. But it is NOT akin to murder. I know many people who got psaks to abort for whatever reason (and the mother's life was NOT in danger). Many rabbanim will give a psak that you can abort an ill or deformed child. No rav will give you a psak that you can chas vechalila murder such a child who is already born. So how can you compare the two?

Culturedpearls

Fri, Nov 30 2012, 3:59 am

Tablepoetry wrote:

Culturedpearls wrote:

No I would not permit an abortion under such circumstances. To me it's akin to murder.

I said in these circumstances. I'm not paskening, I'm not a Rav but I honestly do not think they'd be a Rav who would permit an abortion under such circumstances as our troll.
I have heard of those who did abort but they never asked a psak. Where I live a parent needs to give consent for any child under 18.
I don't think any harm will come to a stupid teen by carrying & having a healthy baby who could be adopted by a loving family. She may even learn that her actions have consequences.

Tablepoetry

Fri, Nov 30 2012, 4:09 am

Culturedpearls wrote:

I don't think any harm will come to a stupid teen by carrying & having a healthy baby who could be adopted by a loving family. She may even learn that her actions have consequences.

No harm will come to her? How about public humiliation? Missing at least a month of school? Maybe being expelled from her school, if it's a religious one? And the harm of her still-developing body undergoing a pregnancy and birth which it is not yet ready for? And then a lifetime of wondering where her child is, if he's ok, did she do the right thing?

I'm not saying abortion is the answer - far from it. But to say no harm will come if she gives the baby up for adoption is seriously belittling the issue.
Also, I am uncomfortable with the eagerness many express here to have the 'stupid teen' feel the consequences. We have alll done stupid things in all our lives, and only by God's grace avoided severe results. Some compassion would be appropriate.
And no one seems interested in the fact that the boy was just as 'stupid' but he won't feel ANY consequences at all if the baby is just sent out for adoption. Where's the chinuch in that?

Raisin

Fri, Nov 30 2012, 4:16 am

tablepoetry, thats unfair. Do you really think your sons or brothers or other male relatives would have no feelings at all if they knew that somewhere out there in the world their son or daughter is being brought up by strangers? Not all men/boys are heartless. And many of them would care what happens to a child of theirs. I would think abortion is easier on the boy in this case.

Tablepoetry

Fri, Nov 30 2012, 5:59 am

Raisin wrote:

OK, some men would have feelings knowing their child is being raised somewhere. Some (many) men wouldn't think about it twice. But in any case, it's nothing compared to the consequence of actually carrying a baby 9 months, (as all your community glares at your stomach like it's the letter A), giving birth in excruciating pain, and then giving your baby up while your breasts are still leaking milk. No comparison at all.

Isramom8

Fri, Nov 30 2012, 7:02 am

Let me get this straight. Teen parents would be upset to know that their child is out there somewhere but they don't know where. But they wouldn't be upset to know that they deprived the child of a life. Maybe I have to take parenting classes, because I don't think I'm raising my kids with these values.

Isramom8

Fri, Nov 30 2012, 7:11 am

Squishy wrote:

I would love my children no matter what.

I would want to raise the baby myself if either of my children had a child out of wedlock. I don't understand this aborting and adopting out family.

So would I, but probably the children of parents like you and me are not usually the ones getting into this kind of trouble.

The children of our children are, of course, our own grandchildren...

33055

Fri, Nov 30 2012, 7:38 am

Isramom8 wrote:

Squishy wrote:

I would love my children no matter what.

I would want to raise the baby myself if either of my children had a child out of wedlock. I don't understand this aborting and adopting out family.

So would I, but probably the children of parents like you and me are not usually the ones getting into this kind of trouble.

The children of our children are, of course, our own grandchildren...

Thank you. BH Hashem gave me very good children.

superjew

Fri, Nov 30 2012, 7:48 am

So basically you're saying that this unborn child will be this teenagers 'time' or consenquence?! Poor baby! If a teen WANTs the baby then great but if not (and teen doesn't want to adopt or etc) then abortion will be the best option because otherwise this baby will be their consenquence.
P.S. Abortion / getting pregnant is s/t's consenquence enough

Tablepoetry

Fri, Nov 30 2012, 7:56 am

Isramom8 wrote:

Squishy wrote:

I would love my children no matter what.

I would want to raise the baby myself if either of my children had a child out of wedlock. I don't understand this aborting and adopting out family.

So would I, but probably the children of parents like you and me are not usually the ones getting into this kind of trouble.

..

Don't be so sure. Life has taught me that anyone's children can get into trouble, and that includes this kind of trouble. You never know.

Last edited by Tablepoetry on Fri, Nov 30 2012, 8:00 am; edited 1 time in total

Tablepoetry

Fri, Nov 30 2012, 7:59 am

Isramom8 wrote:

If you're referring to what I said, you are twisting my words. I never said teens wouldn't be upset after an abortion. I just said that there is plenty to be upset about when adopting a child out - it's not something which causes 'no harm' to 'stupid teens', like Cultured said.

It pains me once again to write 'stupid teens'. It is so, so arrogant. May you never be faced with the shame of having one of your mistakes (and we all make them) have such dreadful, public consequences.

notshanarishona

Fri, Nov 30 2012, 8:11 am

There is mistakes and there is mistakes. Just like if someone commited adultery, lihavdil, no one would say her husband shouldn't divorce her b/c she just made a mistake. This is a little more than "just" making a mistake and any one who old enough and of full mind does it willingly , should still face the consequences.