would you feel the same had dd murdered someone?

33055

Fri, Nov 30 2012, 5:56 am

Tablepoetry wrote:

Isramom8 wrote:

Squishy wrote:

I would love my children no matter what.

I would want to raise the baby myself if either of my children had a child out of wedlock. I don't understand this aborting and adopting out family.

So would I, but probably the children of parents like you and me are not usually the ones getting into this kind of trouble.

..

Don't be so sure. Life has taught me that anyone's children can get into trouble, and that includes this kind of trouble. You never know.

Agreed. But it less likely.

Neither one of us said we were sure our children would never get into trouble we just said we would stand by them.

For sure I would stand by an innocent baby even not of my blood.

octopus

Fri, Nov 30 2012, 6:30 am

what are we comparing? teen dd getting pregnant and a teen dd comitting murder? if that is the case it is nauseating if you could compare the two. I don't think it belongs in the same category at all. and in halacha they are not! if you think that teen dd getting pregnant is arayos you have got it wrong. znus is NOT in the category of arayos and is not a yehareg v'al yaavor. and if we are talking abortions....the halacha allows for it in certain instances... how can you compare?

Barbara

Fri, Nov 30 2012, 7:17 am

amother wrote:

I don't think abortion is the same as murder. I don't think the Torah view is that abortion is the same as murder.

I would view a teenage DD getting pregnant as a moment of stupidity rather than a moment of passion.

My teen DD doesn't have those red lines ingrained and it's not through my lack of trying. Not all DD's are created equal.

If my teen DD got pregnant I would seriously consider abortion. If she killed somebody I would say "I still love you but you have to pay the price for your crime."

Yes, yes, yes. And, of course, the Torah views a fetus as a "partial life" not a life, so OP's analysis was wrong.

I'm just curious, how many of your daughters attend high schools that would allow her to attend classes after she started showing, and up until she was ready to give birth; and allow her to return afterwards.

How many of your daughters attend schools that, even if she went away for the pregnancy, would allow her to return to school if they knew of the pregnancy.

If your daughter would choose to raise the baby on her own, how many of your kids' schools would accept the child? (FTR, ours would.)

Three years later, if a shadchan suggested such a girl to you, or if your son brought her home, how many of you would say "it really doesn't matter to us that she had a child out of wedlock, all that matters is that she's a lovely girl."

Unless and until you and your communities are willing to full accept a girl who becomes pregnant before marriage, please don't feed me any BS about how there's no harm to her in having the baby.

Abortion comes with its own set of problems. That's why it is an individual decision, which each family would need to make for itself, based on its own set of circumstances. It is also why you'll never hear of an overall psak OK'ing abortions in such circumstances, because the rabbis also recognize that it is a decision that needs to be made based on the specific set of circumstances.

In any case, and as someone else said, anyone who thinks that it couldn't happen to "their" kids is putting her head in the sand. I have a teen who, as of today, really is a good kid. And I thank Hashem every moment, and pray its lasts another day. Because at this point in my life, I know some truly amazing, wonderful, parents of terrific teens who have made some really stupid mistakes. Teens do that; they're still not fully emotionally mature. And I'm not stupid enough to think it cannot happen to my child, or stupid enough to think that good parenting alone is enough.

b from nj

Fri, Nov 30 2012, 9:11 am

Barbara wrote:

amother wrote:

VERY well said Applause

!!!

Culturedpearls

Sat, Dec 01 2012, 3:01 am

Raisin - my reply was for the circumstance our troll described. Not rape, not cancer. Those are different situations & no one except a Rov & the woman can decide.
Tablepoetry - by no harm, I mean no long term physical harm. The other things are consequences. I stand by "stupid teen" as I assume the teen made a stupid mistake & not an OTD promiscuous teenager. Why is wondering where your child is more painful than aborting a life?It's a very selfish view on the issue a kind of "if I can't have no one can" mentality.
isramom - I agree with you.

I truly believe that in most cases such a scenario can be avoided by the right chinuch.

As a side note, there was recently an outcry in my country where a mother had her s-xually active daughters tubes litigated because the daughter was not normal, could not be relied for BC & any child born to her would be dead in 24 hours. I do not know the halachic view on this but I side with the mother. Note that abortion was not under discussion.

Isramom8

Sat, Dec 01 2012, 9:15 am

Raisin wrote:

ok so imagine your (married) daughter or sister or cousin is pregnant. mazel tov! But then, bad news: She finds out she has cancer. The doctors tell her to get an abortion so they can treat the cancer. She does so. Do you think your relative is now a murderer?

No. She had to take serious action of terminating the life of a developing human who, for her, was a rodef. That's the halacha.

Even if she doesn't have cancer and a great rav determines that the ambryo/fetus is a rodef, she is not a murderer for terminating. Murder means killing without just cause. But even killing with just cause is not something we take lightly.

ora_43

Sat, Dec 01 2012, 12:39 pm

OP didn't compare abortion and murder. She compared getting pregnant in a moment of passion to committing a crime in a moment of passion.

OP - I think I feel more or less the same about both scenarios. On the one hand, there are natural consequences to some actions even if the person experiencing them took a risk for just a single minute (take your eyes off the road for just 10 seconds and you could kill someone, or end up severely handicapped).

But OTOH, the idea that someone "should suffer" for their actions is off-putting. Maybe we're just wording the same thing differently. I wouldn't say that someone should suffer the consequences; halavai that they'd only need to suffer exactly what's necessary to correct their behavior and no more, with no such thing as life-long suffering due to a mistake that's been regretted a million times over. But I would say that they might have to suffer harsh consequences, because reality is what it is.

Murder is an extreme situation, and IMO not a good comparison, because it takes a certain mindset to be able to commit murder even under extreme circumstances. It's not a mistake that anyone could make no matter what their normal mental state; it's a serious crime that indicates something mentally wrong that will probably take years of work to fix. So while I'd trust that simply seeing a positive pregnancy test would scare most teens out of having unprotected s-x again ever no matter what the outcome of the situation, I wouldn't trust that simply being arrested and spending a night in jail would scare most teens who've killed someone out of doing the same in the future.

Raisin

Sat, Dec 01 2012, 1:50 pm

Isramom8 wrote:

Raisin wrote:

so if a big rav paskens that a teenage BY girl is allowed to get an abortion because in this case the fetus is considered a rodef, why do people think the rav is wrong? I'm assume most people would not do such a thing without a heter.

Culturedpearls

Sat, Dec 01 2012, 1:59 pm

Raisin wrote:

Isramom8 wrote:

Raisin wrote:

You're wrong , frum people have forced their daughters to abort without asking a Rov - due to the shame.
If a Rov paskens that the fetus is a rodef, then it is. Personally I have yet to see such a psak & I'd like to see a basis for it.
My friend ran a home for such girls BTW, where they stayed & were cared for , their babies were adopted out to frum families.

TranquilityAndPeace

Sat, Dec 01 2012, 5:52 pm

Ritty wrote:

Why doesn't anyone think that this baby would be a mamzer? I don't think anyone shud take the psak of a rav lightly and if a rav gives the psak to abort its not only for medical reasons....

A baby born out of wedlock to a teen is not a mamzer.

A baby born to a married woman who had an affair with a boyfriend who impregnated her is a mamzer.

Btw, with regard to a mamzer: Why is it fair to the baby that he/she is a mamzer for life, just because his/her parents made a mistake?

The answer is, on par with the subject of this thread, that actions have consequences.

If someone takes her eyes off the road for 10 seconds, if someone loses their grip on a baby on a 10 story high balcony, if someone gets pregnant in a moment of passion, etc, they all have natural consequences....

llsl

Sat, Dec 01 2012, 6:03 pm

Going back to what the op was comparing doing a crime in a moment of passion and getting preg from a moment of passion and that both ppl should pay for the mistake

I know someone who had pp depression and in a bad moment she killed her newborn baby. This woman is normal and just needed pills to get through the depression after having a baby but she suffers the consequences and will spend the rest of her life in a locked up mental institution,

This woman cries everyday for what she did and can't belive she did it and along with mistakes come the consenquences.

Although the pregnant teen should feel the natural consenquence for her bad moment there is anothet thing to consider the baby

will the teen be careful while pregnant with everything so that the baby is safe?
will the teen be a good mother if keeping the baby?

I am not saying those answers justify an abortion just consider the baby's safety

mistakes should follow natural consenquenses when only that person will be impacted by it thats the way of the world and we shouldn't look for outs thats like all those ppl pleading insanity so they getter an easier sentence but sometimes there is no way out and you suffer from a mistake like someone cheating on a spouse and consequences follow but how do we pick and choose which mistakes will have no way out...

marina

Sat, Dec 01 2012, 7:03 pm

TranquilityAndPeace wrote:

Ritty wrote:

Why doesn't anyone think that this baby would be a mamzer? I don't think anyone shud take the psak of a rav lightly and if a rav gives the psak to abort its not only for medical reasons....

Agh. Don't get me started. Well, too late. Spiritual consequences are not supposed to work in the same way as natural ones. If you sin and you do teshuva, you are forgiven, that is the way religion works and our relationship with God works- it's not like pushing a piano out of a window, where no matter how sorry you are, it will still fall and hurt someone. Our relationship with God is predicated on the concept of forgiveness and it is awful that mamzerim are excluded, especially since the chumash specifies, al pi rashi, that children are only punished for the sins of their parents if they repeat those sins.

It is a horrible injustice that mamzeirim have the status they do and it is only because it was supposed to be an ancient threat to make sure those naughty wives kept their legs closed.