Baalei Teshuva Raising Frum/Chasidishe Kids

morningstar

Thu, Jun 08 2006, 8:03 pm

Joined: 20 Sep 2004
Posts: 7346

PostPosted: Yesterday at 7:32 am Post subject: Re: re: Baalei Teshuva Raising Frum/Chasidishe Kids

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chen wrote:
And so....? Surely the schools can have dress-and-accessory codes that stipulate clothes and accessories must be plain without logos or cartoon characters. And surely the parents can modify such gifts by wielding the old black magic marker as needed.

And so, the cartoon characters is just a symptom ... And it could be an indication of obliviousness on the part of the BT parents as to what is acceptable in the circle they have chosen to join, or it could be more deliberate.

There are other possibilities. The cartoon lunch box may just be a cartoon lunchbox. And the parents may keep it because they are trying to find some neutral grounds on which they can interact with the grandparents.
They may be unwilling to accept magazines or books from the grandparents.. unwilling to let the kids watch TV in grandma's house.. unable to let the kids each Grandma's home-baked cookies.. nixing Grandma taking them to the circus or a movie. So when Grandma sees a pretty lunchbox that she she is sure is unoffensive, the parents may think Big Bird is a pretty innocent theme for a lunch box. It may not have occurred to them that the school would not respect their attempt to respect their parents while still upholding community values.

Or.. they simply may not have not iimagined that a Big Bird lunchbox is an expellable offense no less serious than being mechallel Shabbos-- and that it is a clear indication that they have no place in a black-hat community school and are not deserving of welcome. You must admit it is a subtle point.

Crayon210

Thu, Jun 08 2006, 8:19 pm

chen wrote:

Many of the gerim and long-time BT's of my acquaintance have a far greater and more sincere appreciation for and understanding of what they do than many FFB's.

And many don't. So what?

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they have actively chosen to be observant rather than observe by default, because they know no other way to be, or because they fear being ostracized.

I think this is ridiculous. Most people who are frum as adults are frum because they CHOSE to be. Whether they consciously made a decision to dress properly/eat kosher/keep Shabbos/daven/learn Torah/etc., or if they just continued on, they still have not fallen into a lifestyle of dropping Torah CHV. I think that those people all deserve credit just as much as the ba'alei teshuva and geirim.

In fact, we learn that Yitzchak's tefilos were answered for a child, not Rivka's. Why? Because he was a tzaddik ben tzaddik, and she was a tzaddik bas rasha. And it's easy to be a tzaddik when you're being compared to a rasha. But it's less easy to be a tzaddik in the shadow of a tzaddik...

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Being FFB is easy; coming to frumkeit on your own later in life is hard work!

It's easy to be FFB? News to me.

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In the same way, my admiration goes to the person who chose to work at being frum, and didn't absorb it with his strained peas.

Again, in the teenage years, most FFBs do decide, on some level, that they are either frum or not frum. But unless someone is totally braindead, the fact that s/he grew up frum is not going to keep them frum.

Motek

Thu, Jun 08 2006, 9:28 pm

morningstar wrote:

It may not have occurred to them that the school would not respect their attempt to respect their parents while still upholding community values.

Interesting twist there ... that the school wouldn't respect their attempt etc. as though the school's values don't include kibud av v'eim Confused

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Or.. they simply may not have not iimagined that a Big Bird lunchbox is an expellable offense

Oh please. Nobody was expelled over a lunchbox and there's no reason to respond in posts as though anybody said anything of the kind. Is it useful, do you think, to paint FFB's as maniacs?

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no less serious than being mechallel Shabbos

where on earth did you get that from?

very unfair post

from your other posts, I would have expected something less bitter and irrational and far more intelligent!

morningstar

Thu, Jun 08 2006, 9:58 pm

Here is what I find irrational and unintelligent: deciding that a child's lunchbox ( or snoopy pencil case) is an indication that a child does not belong in the school. And if the lunchbox is an invented example that did not exist, there are tons of other similar situations that DO become issues that are blown out of proportion.

I am always stunned at how the external counts more than the internal in judging "who belongs."

Now granted, a school community may want to transmit that there is value in eschewing popular culture. Then their job is to rationally and intelligently inspire the students to that standard.

If neither a parent or child respects the values a particular school, in the interests of the child's chinuch, it would be proper for a menahel to try to help find a more appropriate placement for the child. This should not be motivated by a desire to reject an "undesirable" child, but by the desire to help the child to grow Jewishly without the terrible effect of being in conflict situation with the school.

But a community has a responsibility to the chinuch of all its children.
I am disgusted at the number of children-- from both BT and FFB homes-- that schools consider "not their kind of kid" and "not their problem."

Motek

Thu, Jun 08 2006, 10:19 pm

morningstar wrote:

Here is what I find irrational and unintelligent: deciding that a child's lunchbox ( or snoopy pencil case) is an indication that a child does not belong in the school.

I agree with you. I just don't think it ever happens quite that way.

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Now granted, a school community may want to transmit that there is value in eschewing popular culture. Then their job is to rationally and intelligently inspire the students to that standard.

Ah, but the hanhala of a school in Boro Park or Yerushalayim, let's say, may very well feel that it's completely unnecessary to inspire them to that standard since it's a "given."

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If neither a parent or child respects the values a particular school, in the interests of the child's chinuch, it would be proper for a menahel to try to help find a more appropriate placement for the child.

Please explain why you think it's the menahel's job to find a school that suits the child. Isn't that the parents' job? with the help of the parents' mentors?

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But a community has a responsibility to the chinuch of all its children.

If it's a community and a community school, yes, I agree with you.

But Yerushalayim is not a community. Neither is Brooklyn and several other large places that have numerous schools and numerous sub-populations.

southernbubby

Thu, Jun 08 2006, 11:01 pm

Addressing Crayon and GRs discussion that FFBs efforts towards frumkeit are no less admirable; I think it should be mentioned that all of the years that you spent in frum schools make it easier to give your own children chinuch. Think of what I went through, trying to help my children when I didn't know much Tanach. I cannot speak or teitch in Yiddish. I daven in Hebrew just like you do but I don't know the meaning of most of the words. I do go to shiurim and study and read but I missed out on the opportunity to be properly educated. Even the BT seminaries that many BTs attend to try to catch up to what others learned at a much younger age, I was not able to attend because I was already married. BH, I have very frum and knowledgeable children, but it was not easy coming from no background.

morningstar

Fri, Jun 09 2006, 12:33 am

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Please explain why you think it's the menahel's job to find a school that suits the child. Isn't that the parents' job? with the help of the parents' mentors?

Because when one enters the field of chinuch, one is not working for oneself.. or even for one's school. One is working for G-d.
(That is why a teacher who is lazy about preparing is referred to as "cursed is the one who does G-d's work dishonestly" ( see Rambam, Hilchot Talmud Torah, 2:3) and why no one may prevent a new school from opening in a community-- because G-d wants there to be more Torah learning ( see Rambam, Hilchot Talmud Torah, 2:7).
I think we can safely extrapolate then, that G-d cares for all children, FFB and BT alike, and that one working as G-d's agent is duty-bound to care for them all as well.

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But a community has a responsibility to the chinch of all its children.

If it's a community and a community school, yes, I agree with you.

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But Yerushalayim is not a community. Neither is Brooklyn and several other large places that have numerous schools and numerous sub-populations.

The fact that it is a large community with sub-communities does not mean it is not a community. And when any sub-communities rejects people and tells them to go elsewhere without being concerned to find them another sub-community that will house them, then they are guilty.

This is the meaning of the Eglah Arupah:why the leaders of the community break the neck of a calf when a person is found dead on the roadside outside their community, and they are duty-bound to proclaim that their hands did not spill this blood. No one would suspect the leaders of the community of murder. But because they did not worry about making sure that the traveler would reach his next destination safely, they are held responsible.

The reality is that there are many people today who want their children in a Jewish school and cannot find a Jewish school to accept them. This is a community problem. When a Jewish kid in New York who wants to be in Yeshiva is not accepted anywhere, the community is as culpable as when it happens in Kalamazoo.

chen

Fri, Jun 09 2006, 8:48 am

GR wrote:

FFB's arent ... frum just because they were born frum.

some are, actually. or, more precisely perhaps, they are frum b/c they live in frum communities and do what the community does, but would not stay that was if they found themselves on a desert island.

It is always shver tzu zayn a yid, but anything you have been doing from birth is easier than something you had to learn later in life.

southernbubby

Fri, Jun 09 2006, 9:53 am

This reminds me of the parking ticket I once got in Montreal. I could not read the French sign that stated which days of the week parking was permitted. I argued with the clerk that the since ticket was printed in English, why not the sign? Her answer was, " when you come to another country, you must learn the laws there and it is up to you to learn." My answer to her was, "if you are so unaccommodating, why should I visit your country and spend my money here?"
The same is true of BTs. They are expected to learn what is acceptable but cannot read the signs. Some decide the visit is not worthwhile and go back to where they came from, or their children do.
What we need is professionalism in the world of kiruv. It is a mistake to haphazardly try to mekarev people without realizing the impact that this will have on their and their children's lives. So many times, if kiruv workers knew how to work with BTs, they could avoid much heartache.

amother

Fri, Jun 09 2006, 10:02 am

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Please explain why you think it's the menahel's job to find a school that suits the child.

Because when he accepted the child into his Yeshiva in the first place, he took upon himself the Chinuch of this child.
If, down the line, it proves to be a "bad fit", he doesn't lose this obligation, he must still do his due dilligence to help find a way for this child to be educated.
The same is true if a child winds up with special ed needs. It's perfectly possible that the school cannot meet these needs, but must help the parents find a placement that can.

morningstar

Fri, Jun 09 2006, 10:12 am

GR, I believe that when a school creates a set of standards that looks like the phone book of a small city, there is something wrong. A well-thought out set of standards will fit on one sheet of paper, and will identify the principles that can be applied to unanticipated situation.

The school then has a manageable number of "big ideas" to submit, and when something occurs that is not withink the spirit of those rules, the school can go to members of the school community and remind them of the shared values.

The point here is not whether there are standards or not: it is the spirit in which they are created. I remember years ago hearing a woman complain about how the BT's in the community were ruining the true yiddishe spirit because-- horrors-- they served grilled chicken. for lunch on the second day of Yom Tov. And EVERYONE knows that this is not in the spirit of Yom Tov.

Now, I suppose the shul in this community could have set a "new standard"-- plastered signs all over saying that only chicken and kugel prepared on the stove, were examples of true Yom Tov behavior. And that anyone who did not accept this standard should find a new shul.

But then THEY would have been wrong. Because while the majority of shulgoers may prefer a yom tov meal of chicken and kugel, and while the grillers may eventually decide to conform to community tradition, when people are rejected from a frum community-- even a black hat community-- for something like this, the crime of rejection is greater than the "crime" of having different culinary preferences.

Prejudice and intolerance can creep into even the most religiously-minded communities. And is just as unattractive in FFB's as it is in rednecks.

To get back to your question: a school may set any reasonable standard it wants. But it has to be able to defend its standard as reasonable.

morningstar

Fri, Jun 09 2006, 10:22 am

Southern Bubby,
The larger issue here is that any family may find particular challenges in raising frum chasidishe children based on lack ofknowledge/lack of familiarity with appropriate role models/ personal struggles/ iconoclastic viewpoints/personality. These issue may apply to BTs more frequently, but they are certainly not exclusive to BTs

And dealing with this problem, then is not an "kiruv worker training" problem.
It is one that must be dealt with community wide, and by all who work in "kelal" matters.

gryp

Fri, Jun 09 2006, 10:23 am

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GR, I believe that when a school creates a set of standards that looks like the phone book of a small city, there is something wrong.

I agree with you, but what about the schools that are there to serve only their on specific community, ie. a Satmar Yeshiva, a Lubavitch Yeshiva, others, or a strict Bais Yaakov too.
people may have their reasons or customs that I have no idea about, and id rather reserve judgement until I learn their reasons.

and why are parents looking into those schools in the first place if theyre not interested in those specific ideals?

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The point here is not whether there are standards or not: it is the spirit in which they are created.

but people can say that about anything depending on their lifestyle.
im sure there are people who would be horrified to have to sign that there is no TV in the house, how can you live life with no TV????
and what about most of us, perhaps the time is coming soon when we will have to sign onto no internet.