Baalei Teshuva Raising Frum/Chasidishe Kids

southernbubby

Fri, Jun 09 2006, 11:09 am

GR, most BTs don't have a clue as to how far certain things go in their communities. I was once subbing for a group of high school girls whose teacher was on bedrest for placenta previa. The girls asked me if there was a problem with her baby and I answered that the problem was with the placenta. I actually did not realize that I said anything wrong. I got a call from some parents that the word "placenta" did not belong in their daughters' vocabulary.

southernbubby

Fri, Jun 09 2006, 12:13 pm

GR, either communities and schools that do kiruv can do a better job educating BTs as to all of these little details or they can accept that there is a limitation on what BTs can be expected to know. When a BT joins a community not dedicated to kiruv, they probably don't expect to be accepted with all of their lack of cultural wherewithal. If they do, someone needs to wake them up. If a potential BT is minding his own business and the next thing he knows, two guys are rolling up his shirtsleeve and putting tefillin on him, he thinks he is invited to join the way he is!
That is why we need more professionalism in kiruv.

morningstar

Fri, Jun 09 2006, 12:18 pm

GR-- most chassidishe communities don't make a blanket rejection of the VCR--even though it is understood that even homes owning a VCR should only show appropriate videos ( home movies and the like). The principal is tznius/kedushah/shemiras einayim... and no one attending Satmar is unaware of that value.

Now comes the hard part. A grandparent is in a nursing home with the TV going all day. News show ( talking head). May the child go and visit?
Given that the basic principle of shemiras einayim etc. is being observed, a wise principal would look the other way. Even if a parent in the school is complaining about that ba'al teshuvah family that lets their kid go someplace where a TV is playing, the school should defend the student, perhaps while calling in the parents and asking them to do their best to monitor what is blaring over the TV or asking them if it is possible to wheel the grandparent away from the TV when the grandchildren come to visit.

I am not against a school having values, and working hard to defend those values. I am horrified, however, at how easy it is scapegoat families and children and decide that they "don't belong."

JRKmommy

Fri, Jun 09 2006, 12:27 pm

southernbubby wrote:

This reminds me of the parking ticket I once got in Montreal. I could not read the French sign that stated which days of the week parking was permitted. I argued with the clerk that the since ticket was printed in English, why not the sign? Her answer was, " when you come to another country, you must learn the laws there and it is up to you to learn." My answer to her was, "if you are so unaccommodating, why should I visit your country and spend my money here?"
The same is true of BTs. They are expected to learn what is acceptable but cannot read the signs. Some decide the visit is not worthwhile and go back to where they came from, or their children do.
What we need is professionalism in the world of kiruv. It is a mistake to haphazardly try to mekarev people without realizing the impact that this will have on their and their children's lives. So many times, if kiruv workers knew how to work with BTs, they could avoid much heartache.

I actually had a little laugh at that. We got many such tickets in front of my bubby's house in Montreal!

I can also say, having dealt with both wonderful kiruv-oriented rabbis and horrible Quebec civil servants/language zealots, that I would never have become frum if the rabbis were like the Quebec officials! [I remember, for example, being given a mini-lecture on why I needed to speak French in Quebec when I dared to ask "where's the washroom" in English at the Quebec tourism office located about 100 yards from the Ontario boarder. That's the sort of attitude which explains why 25,000 English-speaking Jews from Montreal picked up and moved to Toronto.]

morningstar

Fri, Jun 09 2006, 12:30 pm

Found your "placenta" story a good example of the problem. I don't see anything "risque" about the word "placenta" in a high-school setting.

Even so, a parent can call and mention that she personally does not want her daughter to know about the placenta, and could you please respect her wishes. And in a healthy community, though this request seems strange to you, you say," Sorry, it never occurred to me, but I will try not do this in the future."

Likewise, although Miriam HaNeviah was a daughter brought to work every day to help her mother Yocheved deliver babies, it might be wise to advise your daughter not to speak of the experience in school, because intuitively, you know that many people will balk. By the same measure, however, they should recognize your right to send your daughter to work in acordance with biblical precedent, and respect that this not a violation of "community standards."

In a healthy community, we respect that other people have idiosyncrasies that we may not share-- even idiosyncrasies that we think are crazy-- and recognize that we need to live and let live..and that a little bit of compromise and goodwill go a long way.

GR, do you think a kid should be asked to leave a (chassidishe) school because she was present at her mother's homebirth delivery? Or do you think we can call the kid in, tell her that it would not be tznius to share details of the experience with friends, and leave it at that?

chen

Fri, Jun 09 2006, 1:06 pm

morningstar wrote:

it might be wise to advise your daughter not to speak of the experience in school, because intuitively, you know that many people will balk.

Reminds of the scene in "Yentl" when her father draws the curtains before starting to teach her Torah. She asks why he is closing the curtains since G-d will see what they are doing anyway. He responds "G-d will understand what we are doing...I'm not so sure about the neighbors."

gryp

Fri, Jun 09 2006, 6:16 pm

Quote:

I am not against a school having values, and working hard to defend those values. I am horrified, however, at how easy it is scapegoat families and children and decide that they "don't belong."

morningstar

Fri, Jun 09 2006, 6:56 pm

I agree with you.
but what if- im playing devils advocate, dont scream at me- the principal notices that all the laxity in certain values is coming only from a certain group. be it BT's, immigrants, Frenchies, or whoever.
so he decides to exclude that group from his school.
I dont think I would blame him, although I dont know if I would agree with him either.

GR, unlike you, I would blame him. He is supposed to model Torah values.
Prejudice and bigotry is as unattractive in mechanchim as it is in rednecks.
A mechanech with integrity will not prejudge, but will interview all serious applicants, andassess if the applicant could be well served by the school. If such is not the case, a caring mechanech will suggest an alternative that is better for the applicant.

Great line in the Educator's Handbook by Rabbi Hodakov-- which every mechanech should read-- in which he states out that children don't exist to provide jobs for mechanchim: mechanchim exist to serve the children.
Will try to track down the exact quote for you.

Last edited by morningstar on Sun, Jun 11 2006, 1:45 am; edited 1 time in total

gryp

Fri, Jun 09 2006, 7:03 pm

Quote:

A mechanech with integrity will not prejudge, but will interview all serious applicants, and assess if the applicant could be well served by the school.

I agree with that. but...

Quote:

If such is not the case, a caring mechanech will suggest an alternative that is better than the applicant

does that mean we should go back to the days of the distinct seperation between Talmidei Chachomim and Amoratzim?
are we going to start schools exclusively for different types of people so that everyone will fit in perfectly somewhere?

(btw, to quote, simply copy and paste the part you want into the reply box, highlight it, and click "quote" (above between "U" and "Code")

southernbubby

Sun, Jun 11 2006, 8:37 am

I became frum and started my family in Buffalo, NY about the same time as several other families became frum and started theirs. Years later, when we reconnected to see what shidduch possibilities existed, I was sadly surprised to see how many of their children were no longer frum. To top it off, unlike me who was totally uneducated, these women had all gone to BT seminaries.
We all had somewhat similar parenting styles, in that, if you look at the example of my daughter who viewed a birth at 16 and also drove at that age,
we allowed our children to become equal with adults in certain ways.
Yet, my children are BH all frum and they were not as lucky, so what were the differences?
First of all, I was not blessed with as many children. I think that some of these women had trouble managing. Secondly, the schools and communities that we all lived in probably had a lot to do with the outcome. Our children were raised in a smaller community with smaller classes. Maybe if someone were to perform a study and examine all of the variables such as:
1)Economic factors
2)Distance from non-frum family members
3)Size and type of community
4)Size of family
5)Amount of frum education for BT,
we might be able to determine what will bring about the best outcome for children of BTs.

Motek

Sun, Jun 11 2006, 10:25 am

amother wrote:

Quote:

Please explain why you think it's the menahel's job to find a school that suits the child.

Because when he accepted the child into his Yeshiva in the first place, he took upon himself the Chinuch of this child.
If, down the line, it proves to be a "bad fit", he doesn't lose this obligation, he must still do his due dilligence to help find a way for this child to be educated.
The same is true if a child winds up with special ed needs. It's perfectly possible that the school cannot meet these needs, but must help the parents find a placement that can.

So you're saying that by virtue of the fact that the child was accepted in his school, he committed himself to educating this child for the longterm. I don't understand that reasoning.

I certainly think it would be mentschlich if the menahel had information and ideas about schools that would better suit the child, that he pass along that information, but I see no other obligation on his part.

Motek

Sun, Jun 11 2006, 10:28 am

chen wrote:

It is always shver tzu zayn a yid, but anything you have been doing from birth is easier than something you had to learn later in life.

Rav Moshe Feinstein z'l said we lost a generation of Jews because parents said, 'Es iz shver tzu zein a Yid (it is hard to be a Jew).'