kind of in shock right now!

DrMom

Tue, Apr 23 2013, 12:47 pm

greenfire wrote:

http://www.google.com/search?q=reva+mann&client=firefox-a&hs=eQL&rls=org.mozilla:en-US:official&tbm=isch&tbo=u&source=univ&sa=X&ei=aaF2UaLXHcXlqgHPiYCgBw&ved=0CDEQsAQ&biw=1013&bih=605

if you really want pictures - you're on the internet dear - google it

So? This is Reva Unterman (pen name Reva Mann), author of "The Rabbi's Daughter," the book the elderly woman suggested to the OP. Thisis NOT the woman whom the OP is assisting. Reva Unterman is in her 50s. She is not a 93-year-old Holocaust survivor.

mimivan

Tue, Apr 23 2013, 12:52 pm

If this woman is indeed the "madame" who has the same name, and you are wondering how a "nice Jewish girl" could have ended up in such a situation, think about this one.

She lost both of her parents in the Holocaust. She was an orphan. Many orphans had to wander the countryside and forests and find shelter where they could. The novelist Aaron Applefeld, a Holocaust survivor, writes in his memoirs that he escaped the camps, had to wander, and the only place he could find shelter was to chop wood and do chores for a non-Jewish harlot. He had to be associated with this woman to survive.

Now imagine a little girl, without parents, who was forced to wander. What might have happened to her, because she was a girl and not a boy, if she had to find shelter with such a woman? What situation could she have been forced into. And had no family after the war, no education, no place to go so she could pick up the pieces of her life.

So consider that before asking how a "nice Jewish girl" even after the Holocaust, could have ended up in such a "calling." The Artscroll and frum books about the Holocaust, for obvious reasons, omit such stories, but there were plenty.

sequoia

Tue, Apr 23 2013, 1:00 pm

That's right Mimivan.

The Covenant by Naomi Ragen also deals with such a situation. And the character is very sympathetic.

Holocaust survivors sure as heck weren't going to let anything bring them down after they had survived where their friends and family perished. Their world was gone. No family, no friends, no support system, no job or degree or money. All alone and with vivid memories of the horrors and *privations* they endured. Alone in the universe, with strong survival skills and a passionate will to live.

There's a lot biographies aren't telling us. There's a lot our bubbies and zeidies aren't telling us. Survivors aren't saints or angels. They are survivors.

amother

Tue, Apr 23 2013, 4:13 pm

I only just saw this but I feel very sorry for her. Do you honestly think she feels pleased about this? Please don't ask her more about this. The last thing she needs is to feel that the nice girl who visits is judging her. She might have told you she knew those famous people but she didn't tell you how did she. Why interrogate her? Yes by all means ask her questions back but not about her past. Ask her what books she likes to read, if she has any siblings (though maybe veer away from the children aspect), what are her favourite films etc etc, what she likes to eat. Tell her about what's going on in your life - it doesn't have to personal information (though I'm sure she would like that!), but just day to day stuff.
I don't know how she got into this whole thing but I highly doubt that she chose that absolutely of her own accord. There was probably a reason why she felt she needed to, or as someone else said, all she'd been through and seen in her life made her become used to such sordidness that she thought it was just normal. Can you imagine how it must have felt, even if she was the organiser to see so many disgusting men and operating in this kind of world where things are so ugly and sordid. Maskena. I only hope she had a happy marriage to a decent man.
put it aside now, she must have so much she can teach you despite the fact that you might not think highly of her anymore. I'm sure she genuinely is fond of you and only wants the best for you and is so happy to see you married and please G-d with children. It is amazing that she has still has faith and proud of her religion. Don't stop seeing her, she really likes you trust me.

amother

Tue, Apr 23 2013, 4:28 pm

I would be scared to go there. Even she is 93 she has a criminal background and she used people in a mean abusive way to her benefit. Who knows maybe one of her pimps friends will show up and attack you. You don't need to be close to scum. It might rub on you. You never know. Be careful and better run away from fire.

Kugglegirl

Tue, Apr 23 2013, 4:49 pm

Ever hear of someone being a Baal Teshuva? THis lady, if frum now, is a Baal Teshuva too.

Some of us who are BT's have pretty unusual things in our past too. Maybe when G-d willing, I'm 93 I'll want to talk about it, or at least let on to some young 20- something that I wasn't always just a "nice old lady" that there is more to me.

Sometimes it's hard to find common ground with 22 year olds who are so straight & sheltered. maybe she was just testing the waters to see what you are interested in & figure out what you two might have to talk about. Honestly, if you are too shocked to handle this, maybe you need to do some other kind of volunteer work, or wait until you are older with some more life experience yourself.

amother

Tue, Apr 23 2013, 4:54 pm

What concerns and upsets me is not that she was a harlot (if she was), that's fine, I mean it's not a good situation but it doesn't say anything about the person, what disturbs me also is the fact that she was an "upmarket" madame of a call girl/harlot ring - exploiting girls, condemning them to a life of rough, loveless relations and destroying their lives.

amother

Tue, Apr 23 2013, 4:56 pm

Kugglegirl wrote:

You might be right. But if op was my daughter I would not let her go there. I don't take chances with my 22 yo daughter. Op is young and this old pimp talking to her like she is trying to make her her new employee. This is not a joke. She has a very heavy criminal background. What is this young frum girl doing in that house. I will not play with thinking she made teshuva on account of the safety if my daughter.

PinkFridge

Tue, Apr 23 2013, 4:57 pm

amother wrote:

Yes, these 100 y.o. pimps are scary dudes.
(OK, a sharp 93 y.o. can be quite manipulative and dangerous, but I had to share my immediate reaction to the rest.)
I haven't read the whole thread but I would say that if something makes one uncomfortable, one might not be the best person to do the chesed. However, if there's really no one else to do the chesed, and it's clear that this is someone who shouldn't be shunned then it seems the better part of valor to stay involved to some degree.

amother

Tue, Apr 23 2013, 5:12 pm

Kugglegirl wrote:

I am a BT too, but I haven't done anything majorly wrong, I am a BT because I was not brought up in a frum home and found my way home. BT doesn't mean a person has sinned. Organising the prostitution of young women is very scary. I find it hard to believe that she was brought up in a frum home, even though she lost her parents. This is like another world from Judaism and Torah. This is the lowest of the low.

amother

Tue, Apr 23 2013, 5:20 pm

amother wrote:

Kugglegirl wrote:

I know, but in all her pictures her family look frum/charedi, she tells me they are, and when I went for the first time she kept asking me how religious I am and when I told her I am religious she was like good for you etc etc - but how do I know what's true and what's not

Dolly Welsh

Tue, Apr 23 2013, 5:36 pm

Being nice to old people is an important Jewish value, so you will slip away sweetly and have them get her another volunteer who is over 40. It's an unwholesome acquaintance. Whether it's the same person or not. When we lose our sense of ick, we lose everything, so preserve yours.

vintagebknyc

Tue, Apr 23 2013, 6:03 pm

amother wrote:

what is wrong with you? why would you even think this?

this is one of the most offensive posts I have seen on imamother, and I've seen plenty.

no 93 year old women who needs chesed is going to have pimp friends who will attack the OP. where did you get this imagination?

Fox

Tue, Apr 23 2013, 6:08 pm

Here's my thought on this: I completely see and agree with Dolly's assessment of the "ick factor" -- that's an important part of a Jewish woman's neshama.

However, I'd suggest reframing this as an issue of tznius: there are certain things in life -- however vital, important, and appropriate they may be -- that are not public. The emotion of shock is one of these. You were not wrong to be shocked by your discovery (if, in fact, it is the same woman your research unearthed). But shock is not an emotion that we broadcast to others except under exceptional circumstances.

We learn on Rosh Hashannah that Hashem judges us as we are now -- not on the basis of our past or even our future. So whether this is really the same woman; whether she attempted to mitigate the difficulties of those around her or made them worse; whether she made difficult or even bad choices . . . it is all irrelevant to you. Simply accept her as she is right now.

As for references to racy literature or appraising your appearance, I suspect she may simply be affirming that she is still a living, breathing, s-xual individual who notices these things. Western media tend to des-xualize the elderly, but that's neither good manners or consistent with the Torah. The laws of yichud don't apply only to the young and visually appealing! You see her as an "old lady," but she still sees herself as someone who enjoys a racy novel now and then.

I suppose that if you truly feel too uncomfortable, you should give up this assignment. However, this might be a good opportunity to simply push past the "ick factor" (without denying it) in order to achieve something more important.

amother

Tue, Apr 23 2013, 6:25 pm

vintagebknyc wrote:

amother wrote:

I understand you but I don't think she has a wacky imagination so much - let's hope this phase in her life is well and truly over and she really has become religious now, but you can never be sure of anything/anyone in life. how does the op know who her friends/acquaintances are??

vintagebknyc

Tue, Apr 23 2013, 7:59 pm

amother wrote:

vintagebknyc wrote:

amother wrote:

how does anyone know who anyone's friends or acquaintances are?

there is a world of difference between a madame and a pimp. you might not like the profession, but you should at least educated yourself before spouting off inane fears