kind of in shock right now!

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Forum -> Relationships -> Manners & Etiquette

Kind of in shock right now!

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View latest: 24h 48h 72h

amother

Tue, Apr 23 2013, 9:41 pm

marina wrote:

Here's my take on this:

OMG THAT IS SO COOOL!!! I would love to volunteer with someone as interesting as this woman. She probably has so many fascinating stories. And yeah, if you are 93 years old and want to hit on me, go right ahead and kol hakavod!

Seriously, OP, I envy you.

how are stories about harlots/call girls, s*x and destroying marriages fascinating? well to me at least they are not, they are ugly and depressing

amother

Tue, Apr 23 2013, 9:57 pm

yes she has had a past, but you do realise that she is being half jokey and playing around with you?

amother

Tue, Apr 23 2013, 10:16 pm

Marina , you're cooler!!'

BlueRose52

Wed, Apr 24 2013, 12:50 am

marina wrote:

I had exactly the same reaction. I would looove to talk to this woman and find out more details if that indeed was her. (And I tried Googling based on the various details provided and couldn't find anything, so if anyone's figured it out, please PM me. Smile

)

A few other points - there's a big difference between a madame and a pimp, and while I'm not going to say it's a recommended field to go into, I don't think that the perception of a madame that some people here have is correct. They typically don't ruin the lives of the women who work for them, or abuse them, to the best of my knowledge. From what I've gathered, it's usually more of a volunteer arrangement, with the Madame being more like a shadchan that gets a cut for each shidduch she makes. At least that's the impression I've gathered from portrayals in books, movies and articles I've read about s-x workers.

Secondly, the issue of s-x work in the Jewish world is sadly not as rare as we'd hope. A documentary was made about a whole Jewish s-x trafficking ring in the early part of the 20th century which had Jewish gangsters deceiving poor Jewish girls from shtetls into traveling abroad under the guise of finding them a marriage partner, and then forcing them into prostitution. And a few days ago, the Forward had an article touching on the travails of the early Jewish immigrants to NYC.

Quote:

Cohen, one of the organizers of the federation conference, said that history is a guide here. “Jews were victims, perpetrators, buyers and at the forefront of finding solutions,” she noted. The National Council of Jewish Women used to have a presence on Ellis Island to intercept single Jewish women who were unknowingly sent to these shores to be s-x workers. “It’s our issue, not only because we have a moral obligation, but because we had our own experiences,” Cohen said.

imamiri

Wed, Apr 24 2013, 1:29 am

marshmellow wrote:

she has also not given her name which is respecting her privacy

The famous politician and the others who resigned in the wake of the scandal is not exactly an obscure story. Nor is the harlot he was photographed with in bed by investigators. It was a major story. 2 seconds of googling reveals the name of the politician, the harlot, and her madame.

sunflower_seed

Wed, Apr 24 2013, 2:23 am

omg no one can guess her past and no one can be sure of whats shes done and how evil it was.
but I find it real sad that women dont validate feelings of other women. how can anyone advice the op to go back because for sure the old lady likes her and its real chesed???
the sound advice should be- if anything makes you uncomfortable but you are not even sure what it is but if you had the choice you would not go back then Dont go back e basta!!!

Frumdoc

Wed, Apr 24 2013, 5:41 am

Well, to put a slightly different perpective on.

I've met lots of harlots in my line of work. Some are complete train wrecks: addicts, abused, hopeless and intensely vulnerable. Others seem way in control and say they do it for the lifestyle. But all of them have had some previous experience that led them to devalue their body to the point at which the use they put it to was acceptable. I certainly never met any who I would describe as 'evil' even if they were exploiting other women as they had been exploited.

For this woman, it may have been the shoah, and the shocking experiences she encountered that led her and so many others to devalue their lives, bodies and souls just from being so dehumanised in the camps or other horrendous experiences.

It may be that she is now, at 93, re-evaluating her life, and seeing what might have been in another lifetime and age, the young happy, innocent volunteer, and having an enormous amount of psychological internal conflict from that.
Perhaps she previously justified her actions by telling herself tales of the rich and famous, and holding onto her secret knowledge, just like we hold on to a precious private encouter with someon like Ruchoma Shain oh.

Perhaps she is ashamed of what she has inadvertantly let slip to you, in a nervous moment when she is trying to impress some young girl who holds all the emotional cards in terms of chosing to visit or not, and it all came out wrong.
Perhaps she is desperately trying to understand why she has shared something she is actually very conflicted about.
Perhaps she is testing you out, by shocking you to scare you away, as she is so used to rejection and hurt that she pushes you away before she has a chance to become attached to someone who may hurt her.
The fact that she has never married and has no family or close friends is a strong indication that she is emotionally very vulnerable, and hasn't allowed people in before.
Perhaps she is developing early dementia, and is therefore what we call 'disinhibited', ie sharing things she would otherwise not do.

So many possibilities.

I would suggest that if you can't handle this, leave now, before you hurt her just as others have done in the past. She doesnt deserve your half hearted efforts and whatever you say, googling her to find out what you knew must be negative things about her is a horrible thing to do to anyone, and I would be ashamed I I had done the same thing rather than taking her and her admittedly strange behavious at face value.

imasinger

Wed, Apr 24 2013, 6:09 am

A little OT, but just to add to the story about Jewish girls in such a "business":

A couple of months ago, DH and I went to pay a shiva call to one of his colleagues, whose wife had just lost her mother. There was only one other person who stopped by while we were there, a non frum acquaintance of the mother's, who was a professor and researcher at a local university. She and I got to chatting on the doorstep afterwards, and she asked me to put her in touch with the menahel of our local BY. Why? Because she was on the board of a small foundation that was set up to offer about $1000 each year as a scholarship to a deserving Jewish girl. In this day and age, for most colleges, the amount is so small that it doesn't do much, but for the kind of program a BY girl might do, it would be of some significant help, and the need was there.

What does all this have to do with this thread? Well, it seems that the original purpose of the foundation, created almost a century ago, was to keep Jewish girls off the streets and get them an education. I had to laugh, because I don't think our BY girls are in much danger in this regard, but hope that her conversation with the menahel was productive to both sides.

Obviously, someone had seen enough about Jewish girls becoming hookers that they were willing to set up this charitable foundation.

amother

Wed, Apr 24 2013, 8:12 am

She has been married and she has few friends because many of them have passed. Don't worry I am not going to reject her. Should I give her a call to see how she is and how she is getting on with the computer?

PinkFridge

Wed, Apr 24 2013, 9:22 am

amother wrote:

Sure.

amother

Wed, Apr 24 2013, 9:37 am

you're not feeling comfortable with this job, so leave it. that simple.

even if it's really her... she did it 40 years ago, got punished by her acts by civil law and you're still shocked?... 40 years after she left this lifestyle?

please.

if you feel she is making inappropriate comments, tell the organizer of the volunteer committee about it. not about what she did 40 years ago. and consider another extremely important point: what about her mental health? is that 100% ok? maybe she is just getting senile and venting out things that she kept secret or was even ashamed for.

marshmellow

Wed, Apr 24 2013, 9:51 am

you shouldn't leave the job, carry on. Forget about this whole episode that you ever found out about this, put it to the back of your mind, and if she does happen to let more details slip at some point all the better because you've digested it now so it won't be alarming to you and she won't sense that you feel that way. Maybe it was best you found out now on your own just in case it's brought up - but I don't think it will be. Just be good company to her and make her happy.

amother

Wed, Apr 24 2013, 10:54 am

I'm with the posters who say trust your gut on this.

Not every "chessed" is for everybody. One size does not fit all.

You don't have to feel "guilty" about leaving -- Go and leave this for someone who will enjoy it.

Part of maturing, a life long process, is knowing what makes sense for you and in one way you will grow and from what and what Hashem is asking of you and calling from you to do and be.

Sometimes it can be about saying "no".

Only you can decide.

Hatzlocha

blini

Wed, Apr 24 2013, 12:36 pm

Am I the only one who feels really uncomfortable about gossiping about an elderly lady?

marina

Wed, Apr 24 2013, 2:01 pm

amother wrote:

marina wrote:

how are stories about harlots/call girls, s*x and destroying marriages fascinating? well to me at least they are not, they are ugly and depressing

Eh, the harlots aren't destroying the marriages. The people who visit them are. The working girls are just trying to pay the rent.

amother

Wed, Apr 24 2013, 3:59 pm

I just called her and she was really happy to hear from me as she was not feeling so well and said it was really sweet of me to call and she's looking forward to next week. So let's drop this now because there is no need to talk about it anymore, I have seriously learnt a lesson here I guess I just have to grow up and realise that the the safe little bubble in which I grew up is not real life, so I just wanted to confirm that what I saw is past and irrelevant now, that she is a lovely lady and enjoying my visits.